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Lodestar-class Star Dreadnought
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
it was meant to pull double-duty as sector fleet support and fleet carrier, with the ability to toggle between full fleet carrier and support and repair craft, all while containing the main command elements of the sector fleet.

I'm having difficulty picturing putting this many guns on what is, in essence, a small super star destroyer, and then relegating it to fleet support duty. Because of the Empire's capital ship-oriented naval doctrine, any fleet carrier will need to be in the same system as any battle, as Imperial starfighters lack hyperdrive capability, and any attempt to make them have it in the time frame you are looking at requires a major break from canon starfighter ops.

Further, if what we discussed here is an indicator, any sort of command and communication support will necessitate being in-system as well.

Quote:
Where is the Bellator stuff again? I really would use it, but my fanfic takes place in 10-9 BBY so it wouldn't have been around. All sources for Bellator say that it was around "by 3 ABY" which seems to imply they were being built by 2 ABY.

It implies nothing of the sort. All it implies is that they were in service by 3 ABY, and at least one source (according to Wookieepedia) puts them in service prior to Hoth. There is no indicator how long they were in service prior to that.

Here is the page where I've posted links to most of fractalsponge's current projects. He's posted a few more since, so its worth checking it out.

Quote:
The truth about what we know about the Empire's ships from that era is that we don't know a lot. Not a lot has been written up for that era. After looking for a long time, I came to the conclusion that what is known about the Empire's warships and "ships of the line" from about 19-17 to 5-3 BBY is "very little". We can assume various Star Destroyers (like the Victory series) and certain old designs that were shown in the movies or named in other media (I'm looking at you, Katana Fleet), but there is NOWHERE NEAR the catalogue of capital ships for that era that there is for the Rebellion era. So there is way less to choose from.

The vast majority of my stats have come about because I saw an image that inspired me to write up a stat for it. It is far, far easier to incorporate a ship into a game if you have imagery to work with.

I have no wish to insult the hard work you've put in on your own artwork for this ship, but all I can say is that it doesn't inspire me the way the fractalsponge stuff does. In fact, the primary reason I haven't done stats for his work already is that he hasn't responded to my e-mail requests for accurate information about dimensions, weapons, etc.

Quote:
EDIT: Also, what is this website stardestroyer.net? Does it talk about Star Destroyers and their histories? A quick overview led me to some strange-looking forums.

No clue; I don't hang out there.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prior to Hoth sounds weird to me as "when" Bellator-class ships first came about. None were ever featured in the video game TIE Fighter, which occurred in the exact era of Hoth-to-Endor, and we have no other source identifying them at all prior to that. I don't even like 3 ABY, because then why were none at Endor? But sure, whatever arbitrary date is fine; these discrepancies can probably be explained somehow. Anyway those ABY years aren't germane to this craft, as it had been gone nine years by Endor. I am viewing this craft through a 10-9 BBY lens.

As far as the class goes, it is not "relegated" to anything. It uses two large reactor cores and the emphasis is on how potent the craft is on every front. It will join battles directly by firing on enemy ships and launching fighters. It can also lean toward the fleet carrier type and stay back just to support fighters, mainly by warning them of incoming enemy craft/fire, launching missiles at enemy ships, and helping them acquire worthwhile targets. Or it can go full warship mode and plow through enemy capital ships with heavy turbolasers, heavy ion cannons, space bombs, and other warheads, which it carries in quantity just for this purpose.

It was designed to be the "Command Ship" for small fleets, which can be used for full external support or full assault mode, depending on what is needed according to Imperial Star Fleet Command. However, it is not meant to stay in the background during space engagements. That is unless it is launching long-range assault craft, along with others from its group, for some purpose where a more direct assault is impossible or impractical.

The Lodestar class is meant to be the nucleus of such small sector fleets, not simply a container for TIE fighters, and not just as a huge ship with tons of guns. As a "versatile" it must contain small amounts of many different elements. It must first be a communicative ship, as orders will come to it from ISFC, and then those orders will come from it; it must also be able to launch and then support fighters; it must be able to assist in defending other capital ships in its group; it must contain extra consumables, parts, tools, materials, and other needed items; and it must be easy to convert to like a 65% support ship or 65% carrier. Each sector fleet which utilizes a Lodestar will have one that is slightly different than the next because no two sectors are alike.

Your basic Lodestar will have the same stats as posted above, and will remain in the middle of the fleet convoy, just like the Executor-class craft did. In the event of a local space battle, it will first launch fighters and then move to engage the nearest enemy capital ship. After destroying the enemy vessel with heavy turbolasers, heavy ion cannons, proton rockets, and space bombs at close range, it will move onto the next nearest or most strategically important target. During the battle, it will also coordinate the movements of both its own fighters and the movements/attacks of the other capital ships in its battle group, all while issuing orders as needed. This is why it is not a fleet carrier, though it can be converted to (let's call it) 65% of one if needed.

I am working on updated the Capsule again (as well as the general stats). I will probably post it later today as a refined version.

EDIT: As for the drawings I did in MS Paint vs. 3D modeling, it's pretty obvious why someone would prefer vessels with better depictions over two-hour paint jobs. If I had the time and software and the know-how, I could make my ship look just as awesome. As it stands, it's very basic and I can't help that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lodestar-class Star Dreadnought

Starboard View

Dorsal View

Craft: Lodestar, Beacon, Pharos, Balefire, Luminescent, Lantern, Radiant, Ignitor, Flare, Fulminant et. al.
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
Type: Lodestar-class Star Dreadnought
Scale: Capital
Length: 6212 meters
Skill: Capital ship piloting: Star Dreadnought
Crew: 182,220 (3,000 gunners); 38,500 (skeleton)
Crew Skill: Astrogation 4D, capital ship gunnery 6D+2, starship gunnery 6D+2, capital ship piloting 7D, capital ship shields 6D, sensors 5D+1
Passengers: 22,000 (troops) 2,000 (command personnel)
Cargo Capacity: 200,000 metric tons
Consumables: 8 years
Hyperdrive Multiplier: 1.5x
Hyperdrive Backup: 15x
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D+2
Space: 6
Hull: 11D+1
Shields: 8D+1

Sensors:
Passive 100/2D
Scan 200/4D
Search 400/5D+1
Focus 5/7D+2

Weapons:
150 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 60 front, 40 right, 40 left, 10 back
Crew: 2 (300)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
Damage: 7D capital

200 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 80 front, 50 right, 50 left, 20 back
Crew: 2 (400)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 0D
Space Range: 5-20/40/60
Atmosphere Range: 10-20/80/120 km
Damage: 10D capital

100 Heavy Ion Cannons
Fire Arc: 50 front, 25 right, 25 left
Crew: 1 (100)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-10/25/50
Atmosphere Range: 2-50/50/100 km
Damage: 4D+1 capital (ionization)

24 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 8 front, 6 right, 6 left, 4 back
Crew: 2 (48 )
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 4D+2
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60 km
Damage: 8D capital

80 Point-Defense Laser Cannons
Fire Arc: 20 in each arc
Crew: 1 (80)
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.2/2.5 km
Damage: 6D starfighter

160 Concussion Missile Tubes
Fire Arc: 40 in each arc
Crew: 1 (160)
Scale: Capital
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 2-5/30/60
Atmosphere Range: 4-24/60/120 km
Damage: 9D capital

40 Multi-purpose Warhead Launchers
Fire Arc: 10 in each arc
Crew: 3 (120)
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: Warhead specific.*
Atmosphere Range: Warhead specific.*
Damage: Warhead specific.*

* The following is a list of the warheads a typical Lodestar-class craft carries in inventory. Many of the smaller missiles and torpedoes tend to be equipped to starfighter and similar craft, while the Lodestar itself would tend to launch the heavier ordnance, namely the proton rockets, ion torpedoes, and space bombs. However, any craft with a proton torpedo launcher is capable of launching any of the listed warheads:

- Standard Concussion Missiles
- Advanced Concussion Missiles
- Standard Proton Torpedoes
- Advanced Proton Torpedoes
- Intercept Proton Torpedoes
- Proton Rockets
- Space Bombs
- Ion Torpedoes
- Sensor Probes/Buoys

Small Craft Complement:
- 72 space superiority starfighters (exact models depend on era)
- 24 long-range assault craft/bombers (in some configurations, these are simply more space superiority starfighters)
- 12 long-range scout ships (same as above)
- 24 assault shuttles
- 18 heavy assault landing craft
- 8 shuttles
- 6 personnel carriers
- 4 cargo haulers
- 4 minelayers
- 6 tugs
- 500 deep space probes (each containing one probe droid)
- 2 Y-70 Colossus dropships
- 2 prefabricated garrison bases
- 80 heavy walkers—20 AT-AT's, 36 AT-ST's, 24 AT-PT's
- Various speeder bikes, repulsorlifts, and other ground vehicles

Usage: The Lodestar-class Star Dreadnought was created first and foremost to be a command ship that would we well-armored and well-armed, and could meet and exceed every eventuality. It featured two large reactor cores rather than the standard one, so it could produce extra power should the need arise. Its secondary design elements also made it part battle cruiser and part support carrier. Its armaments spoke for themselves in their efficacy versus other capital ships, though the class was also able to deal with starfighters handily as well through the use of guided warhead launchers and point-defense laser cannons. It also carried supplies and other materials to restock or repair other Imperial ships, and was typically the “flagship” of any convoy it was in unless a larger or more senior ship was present.

Typically, a Lodestar-class ship was the command ship for small fleets, particularly sector fleets and specially-convened strike or battle groups. Prior to the introduction of other larger Star Dreadnoughts, a single Lodestar-class craft's job was to support and defend other capital ships in its group, namely (depending on era): Venator, Victory I/II, Imperial I/II, or Secutor-class star destroyers, Dreadnaught, Imperial I/II, EF76 Nebulon-B, Carrack, and Lancer-class frigates and cruisers, and sometimes other star dreadnoughts or carriers such as the Mandator-I/II and Ton-Falk-classes. Each Lodestar’s entourage, while always containing other capital ships, also consisted of an-ever changing rotation of smaller craft like corvettes, freighters, and support ships such as hospital craft or gunships.

A moderately-powered battle group or sector fleet might look like this: one Lodestar-class Star Dreadnought, three to five Imperial I/II Star Destroyers, a mix of 8-12 other destroyers, cruisers, frigates and/or corvettes, a medical ship, and possibly an interdictor. Other attendant craft would include gunships, converted freighters, and scout craft.

Capsule: This ship is of the “star destroyer” lineage, and is basically a Rendili Star Drives execution of a Kuat Drive Yards design, which was updated and altered by Imperial engineers and Rendili’s design department. KDY had designed but ultimately elected not to produce the expensive, heavily armed and armored craft, and had instead sold the schematics, design files, and the rights to produce it to Rendili in 19 BBY. Rendili in turn spent six months upgrading and adding their own technology to the design, and then marketed it to the Empire as the ultimate in self-sufficient command ships and the premier Dreadnought in a post-Mandator-II galaxy. After the Empire’s engineers had seen the schematics and made their own alterations, an agreement was reached where Rendili would produce 12 ships for the Empire, to be commissioned by the end of 15 BBY.

One of the most attractive things to the Empire about the Lodestar class was its ability to command and coordinate the movements and targets of up to 48 other allied capital ships. This bandwidth for command made multi-ship coordination extremely easy for the Lodestar’s commander, who was usually at least a Rear Admiral. An entire section of the bridge was dedicated to battle logistics and multi-ship coordination, and specially-trained Imperial naval combat engineers crewed the 100+ person Logistics department. Something else attractive to Imperial Star Fleet Command was the class’s armament. The craft was nearly unbeatable in single combat. In fact, simulations showed that it would take the equivalent of 22-37 Victory II-class craft to overwhelm one in combat. Its multi-purpose warhead launchers also gave it a strong edge over enemy starfighters should they make the mistake of allowing the launchers to establish a lock on them.

As a “star destroyer” the Lodestar-class had the same arrowhead or dagger-point shape shared by most ships of its lineage. It had a length-to-width ratio somewhere between that of the Imperial I and Executor classes. The class was about 6.2 kilometers in length and was heavily armored, possessing double-thick armor over much of its hull. When it was being revised, the Imperial engineers added maneuvering thrusters to improve the massive craft’s agility and thereby improve its efficacy on the battlefield.

Since the cargo area of Lodestar-class ships was so huge, there was an ongoing joke among Imperial sailors that KDY, Rendili, and the Empire had designed a hollow megafortress with engines. Its cargo area was indeed very large, and this extra space was used to store extra consumables, parts, materials, tools, droids, ordnance, and even a spare reactor core. Generally, a Lodestar-class craft had enough of these items on hand to perform rudimentary repairs and/or basic restockings of other ships in its group. This included the lending of personnel in some situations—at least until a damaged ship could make it to a local shipyard for repairs.

All Lodestar-class craft shared a top-down profile similar to Executor-class ships, except the aft protuberance on an Executor (the arrowhead’s “base” or “neck”) which overhung the engine banks was more truncated on a Lodestar. Furthermore, a typical Lodestar shared another characteristic of the Executor class in that it also had a “city-like” structure on top of it. This made its dorsal superstructure much more irregular in appearance except for the smooth margins between this "city" and the craft's edges.*

* Compare the dorsal view of an Executor -class craft for an example of this “city-like” dorsal superstructure.

On the ventral side of a Lodestar-class craft, there was a rectangle-shaped docking bay about one third of the way back from the craft’s bow. This was the craft’s main docking bay and was flanked on either side towards the aft of the ship by two other smaller bays on the craft's sides. These two smaller bays were mainly for launching starfighters, and a Lodestar was capable of deploying its entire starfighter complement in under a minute. These bays were also for launching small-to medium scale ships, such as shuttles, small freighters, scout craft, gunships, assault shuttles, and personnel carriers.

The main docking bay was large enough to fit one of the 600-meter Dreadnaught-class cruisers. This bay was made exceptionally large on purpose so that it could fit just such larger ships. It also served as a launch bay for the Loderstar’s larger support ships, such as cargo haulers or minelayers. It was also capable of docking with friendly ships for various reasons, and if required, was capable of boarding incapacitated hostile ships (craft unable to be brought into the main docking bay were boarded via assault shuttles, gunboats, and/or personnel carriers). This main bay was also used for launching the Y-70 Colossus dropships, which were the craft a Lodestar-class ship used to land surface vehicles such as walkers, speeders, tanks, other surface vehicles, or one of its prefabricated bases.

Later in its run (circa 8-7 BBY), as both resistance to the Empire intensified and new models of Star Dreadnoughts entered the field, Imperial Star Fleet Command entertained an idea that Lodestar-class craft could be repurposed as strike carriers. This turned out to be true, and they excelled at it. First, each had to be cleared of most of its extra consumables, ground vehicles, parts, tools, and most non-starfighter support craft, and then the cleared space had to be filled up again with starfighters and ordnance. This produced completely self-contained hit-and-run units—each Lodestar could jump to within kilometers of its target, pour starfighters, other ships, and warheads into it, and once all ordnance was loosed, the craft which could jump out did, while Command on the Lodestar would allocate tractor beams to bring in the rest. The Lodestar itself would then jump out maybe ninety seconds later, after scanning for disabled friendlies and doing what they could to bring any aboard. The whole operation would take less than fifteen minutes and would leave most targets completely incapacitated. Command would generally leave probes behind to ascertain the true depth of the damage, and if a second strike was needed, the same craft could be ready for another sortie in less than three hours.

Lodestar-class craft were included in battle groupings and strike forces throughout their entire commissions. However, most of these groupings were together for less than two years (many of them were convened for a single strike or battle and then disbanded), as no Imperial capital ship was ever safe from being shuffled around by Imperial Star Fleet Command. In fact, ISFC was so infamous for doing this on an ad hoc basis that Imperial ship captains coined the axiom “Never get any closer than you have to.” (This is a double entendre because it refers both to a) bringing one’s ship only close enough to an enemy ship to assure one’s fire is maximally damaging to them, and b) not getting too close to the crews of other Imperial ships, as they [or you] were liable to be reassigned at any time.)

Only 39 Lodestar-class craft were ever built or commissioned. Another wave of six ships was canceled when the attention of Imperial Star Fleet Command turned to the Executor-class Star Dreadnought instead. The decision was made in 6 BBY to decommission all craft of the Lodestar class to make room for Executors. In fact, after each Lodestar had been mothballed and scrapped, the recyclable elements from each ship were used to both lay down the keels of the first few Executor-class ships and to help armor them. All personnel from the 39 Lodestars were transferred to new assignments, many of them to the gradually-inflating assignment of the first Death Star, or to the new Executor-class ships as they slowly took shape in the Imperial shipyards.
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Last edited by Error on Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:31 am; edited 3 times in total
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is a predecessor to the Super and Imperial II, why would those later craft have less effective Fire Control and slightly less powerful weapons?
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Error
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Joined: 01 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
If this is a predecessor to the Super and Imperial II, why would those later craft have less effective Fire Control and slightly less powerful weapons?

As for the turbolasers and heavy turbolasers, I was kind of just adding a pip here or a die there to give it some variation. I assumed the heavy ones having no category for Fire Control was a typo so I gave them a die.

It doesn't make sense to me to assume the exact same model of gun every time, particularly if different amounts are being paid for them or they are different in some other way. Confer firearms for example. Some of the most elegant and effective designs ever were from the late 1800's. Or even blasters in SWD6. You have a blaster rifle here that does 5D+1, one that does 5D+2, one that does 6D, and one that does 6D+1, and so on and so forth. Why wouldn't everyone always have a 6D+1 model? Because of stuff like cost and size and availability and any number of 100 other factors. I have no reason not to think the same is true of Imperial naval weapons, especially over a span of years. It's the truth for our own armed forces. I'm not saying tech goes down (it doesn't) but different models just act differently sometimes. I also don't think giving Heavy Turbolasers 1D of Fire Control is a huge break of the game. Would it be okay if I gave them 1D of Fire Control and reduced the damage some?

The Ion Cannons are "Heavy" vs. the not "Heavy" ones on Executor so they do more damage. I reduced the Fire Control by 1D (the ones on Executor do 4D/4D) to add that one pip. Wrong?

The tractor beam projectors I dropped a die of damage to add +2 to fire control, because the tractor beams are very important on a Lodestar. Also wrong?

As for the point defense laser cannons, you first told me that lasers should always do at least 4D, so I made them 4D+1, then you said to add 2D to any starfighter-scale weapons on the ship, which (since these are Starfighter scale) I did to get 6D+1. Wrong yet again?

I would like to know what I may have not understood if the design is still not making sense.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because military design seeks to continually improve the effectiveness of weapon systems, not degrade them.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the Lodestar entered service 10 years before the ISD II and the Super. Even assuming weapons design remains unchanged during that period (highly unlikely), they arent going to put less accurate, less powerful weapinry on their main-line warships. As such, you should either be giving this ship's weapons the same stats or be taking pips away, not adding to them.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Because military design seeks to continually improve the effectiveness of weapon systems, not degrade them.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the Lodestar entered service 10 years before the ISD II and the Super. Even assuming weapons design remains unchanged during that period (highly unlikely), they arent going to put less accurate, less powerful weapinry on their main-line warships. As such, you should either be giving this ship's weapons the same stats or be taking pips away, not adding to them.

You didn't actually answer my post. I'm going to go through each weapon and explain any changes, and I request that instead of using "shoulds" or blanket statements about adding or not adding pips, that you take a close look at each one and respond specifically as to what is wrong with the changes. I don't get how subtracting dice or pips from Damage or Fire Control to add to the other is a bad idea. Unless it's just one of those things people will stick to because "It's been this way since god was a kid."

150 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 60 front, 40 right, 40 left, 10 back
Crew: 2 (300)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
Damage: 7D capital

Nothing to see here, as I just cloned the Executor's turbos after your original complaint.

200 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 80 front, 50 right, 50 left, 20 back
Crew: 2 (400)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 0D
Space Range: 5-20/40/60
Atmosphere Range: 10-20/80/120 km
Damage: 10D capital

Same as above.

100 Heavy Ion Cannons
Fire Arc: 50 front, 25 right, 25 left
Crew: 1 (100)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-10/25/50
Atmosphere Range: 2-50/50/100 km
Damage: 4D+1 capital (ionization)

I cut 1D from Fire Control to increase damage by 1p since these are "Heavy Ion Cannons" as opposed to simply the "Ion Cannons" on the Executor.

24 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 8 front, 6 right, 6 left, 4 back
Crew: 2 (48 )
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 4D+2
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60 km
Damage: 8D capital

I decreased the damage by 1D to give it +2p Fire Control. This is because a Lodestar uses its Tractor Beams extensively to bring in disabled friendlies and other ships at the end of a battle, and sometimes this needs to be done more quickly and more accurately than usual.

80 Point-Defense Laser Cannons
Fire Arc: 20 in each arc
Crew: 1 (80)
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.2/2.5 km
Damage: 6D starfighter

My original had 3D damage. Then you told me that any laser should always do 4D. Then you told me to add 2D to any starfighter-scale weapons—this produced 6D via mathematics.

160 Concussion Missile Tubes
Fire Arc: 40 in each arc
Crew: 1 (160)
Scale: Capital
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 2-5/30/60
Atmosphere Range: 4-24/60/120 km
Damage: 9D capital

Cloned from Executor.

40 Multi-purpose Warhead Launchers
Fire Arc: 10 in each arc
Crew: 3 (120)
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: Warhead specific.*
Atmosphere Range: Warhead specific.*
Damage: Warhead specific.*

Added by me and I think I'm sticking to that one.

If I have a gun with 7D divided between Fire Control and Damage, and I change the orientation from 3D/4D to 4D/3D, that seems perfectly reasonable to me. I would call it "a different model", one which focuses more on Fire Control than Damage. I just don't see how juggling 1p-2D in this way is breaking the game. Besides, each time I did something like that, the exchange was an unequal one. Meaning, for example, that I cut 1D from tractor beam Damage to add 2p to Fire Control rather than another full 1D.

So do you think you could take 20 minutes and go through each of these respond to each one? That is what is going to be most helpful to me in designing this ship. So far you have been loud about me not changing Executor stats, but you have not suggested any alternatives or compromises except "Clone the Executor". I get that you think creating this Dreadnought was pointless, and that's how you show it, by repeating that. But it's not pointless to me, nor is it to my players, nor is it to my fanfic. That is why I am asking for SPECIFIC help, not blanket statements or "should" or "shouldn'ts".
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error, I think you may be overcomplicating CRMcNeill's suggestions. I think he is just suggesting looking at the Imp II stats and lower your predecessor ship's weapon stats accordingly. I would suggest at least considering his suggestion. When you post something to the community for feedback, not all of it will be greatly in depth. Some of it will be vague. Some of it will be completely unconstructively critical. I think CRMcNeill has given you quite a lot and more than most. But if you don't want to lower anything, then don't.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Error, I think you may be overcomplicating CRMcNeill's suggestions. I think he is just suggesting looking at the Imp II stats and lower your predecessor ship's weapon stats accordingly. I would suggest at least considering his suggestion. When you post something to the community for feedback, not all of it will be greatly in depth. Some of it will be vague. Some of it will be completely unconstructively critical. I think CRMcNeill has given you quite a lot and more than most. But if you don't want to lower anything, then don't.

No, that's just my point. I don't mind lowering things because I do appreciate verisimilitude as much as the next guy, and I want the ship to be in line with other models. But I also haven't been able to find base stats for half of this crap, despite asking for sources, and I have zero understanding of how/when/why to calculate and use coordination bonuses. I also

You're right, CRMcNeill has certainly contributed a lot to this—way more than he was obligated to. And I appreciate it—seriously. But here's the thing: I don't want to clone Executor or ISD weaponry ONLY. I don't see how moving pips or dice from Damage to Fire Control or vice versa is out-of-line with how different models of weaponry in the real world work. For example, it is not outside the realm of possibility that this craft has a different model of tractor beam (4D+2/8D) vs. the Executor's (4D/9D) because it is a different ship from a different era which uses its tractor beams a little differently than other ships. One can apply logic to it too; you only get units with better Fire Control at the cost of Damage, and you only get more Damage at the cost of Fire Control. The existence of such a tractor beam on a Lodestar doesn't mean that the 4D+2 is "now a certain level of technology" that would never be gone below in subsequent ship designs. That's not how things work in either the SWU or in the real world. Nothing is ever optimal. Perhaps there is even a model of tractor beam with 3D/10D. This is neither impossible nor outside the spirit of the game. In fact, I would assert that given enough time and money, capital ship weapons manufacturers could come up with a tractor beam that is 10D/20D. But they haven't, and for good reason: existing tech is fine for what needs to be done with it.

A real-world (albeit strange) example of this kind of thing is actually mafia hits. One would assume that mafia hitmen would basically use cannons (let's assume 9mm, .357, and .45 cal are a big weapons) to execute hits. But that's not true; they tend to use .22 caliber pistols. Why? Because the shells barely ever go through and through, and tend to fragment instead. Plus the guns are light, small, and naturally quiet. But they do less damage overall and it sometimes takes a few shots. Does the fact that other, bigger guns exist preclude the use of a .22 caliber pistol? Is the mafia somehow impelled or forced to use larger guns just because they are out there? In game terms, if a .22 were a capital ship weapon, it would have high fire control (because of small size and low kickback) and low damage. But a .357 would probably have lower fire control because of massive recoil and other physical characteristics, but would likely do more damage per shot. I hope people understand what I'm saying here...

CRMcNeill wrote:
If this is a predecessor to the Super and Imperial II, why would those later craft have less effective Fire Control and slightly less powerful weapons?"

The direct answer to this is that for each capital ship weapon on the Executor or any other craft, it seems logical that more than one design must exist for that weapon. For example, there may be ten different types of turbolasers, each with a different FC/Damage split. We have evidence of this in the myriad stats of ships in the SWU. Not all of them are going to be the same; even simple things like laser cannons have diverse stats.

Also, one cannot assume that every example in the RAW is the only example. Plus, different price points will obviously get you different things. If the 4D/4D Ion Cannons on the Executor cost 35,000 credits each, and Heavy Ion Cannons cost 50,000 each, it would stand to reason that you get some benefit from the extra expenditure. Plus, we cannot assume that the highest possible level of technology makes it onto every ship the Empire uses, simply because new technology in Earth markets is usually about 2000% (that's two thousand percent) more expensive than it will be when the next model comes along. Economics function the same way in the SWU as they do on Earth. Perhaps when the Executor class was being designed, 5D/5D Ion Cannons were available, but were out of range of price, and the 4D/4D ones were plenty of firepower for what they would be used for.

CRMcNeill's thinking is extremely linear, and I get that because that's how a lot of analytical people are. But I contend that that sort of thinking allows blind spots (like this one, IMO) to erupt. That's why I asked him to defend his position in a more specific way. I am not trying to be belligerent, I just want him to convince me. I'm fine with any feedback, but I just want the WHY explained a little better with this particular thing.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay...

I'm very busy with work and real life right now, and Error, your posts regularly cross into tl;dr territory for me, since it is much more difficult to chop quotes from other posts when using a touch screen tablet.

A few points, though:
    Weapon stats (Fire Control, Range and Damage) are representative of multiple factors in weapon design that are constantly in the process of being improved incrementally. A +1 bump in a stat represents either a combination of small technological advances, or a major breakthrough in a single area. If this breakthrough is not repeated in later designs, there is usually a reason, such as an unforeseen flaw in the design. When I replied earlier, I hadn't seen that you had already editted the stats. The incremental shifts you made for the ion cannon and tractor beams are within the scope of what I mentioned above.

    As far as the laser cannon, you conflated two different concepts I mentioned in close proximity. In my system, a laser cannon fires a single blast, where a blaster cannon fires a string of blasts like a machine gun. The laser has better range and higher peak damage, while the blaster's rate of fire allows for better accuracy. A basic laser cannon inflicts 4D damage on most ships, but for whatever reason, WEG stats for Capital Ships put them at 2D, and then neglected to adjust for rule changes that left said weaponry essentially impotent. My fix across the board was to increase existing capital ship starfighter-scale weaponry by 2D across the board to bring them equal with the laser cannon mounted on starfighters and space transports. Your single-barrel laser cannon should be rated at 4D, not 6D.

    I still think it's a bad idea to include dedicated anti-starfighter missile launchers on a ship because of game imbalance; putting this many on a single ship makes it an extremely potent anti-starfighter platform at a time when the Empire didnt consider starfighters to be a major threat.

Also, I never said this ship was worthless; I said I wasn't interested in it. You are free to disagree, but my impression of any ship in my Destroyer-Scale and larger will be next to impossible for a group of PCs to engage in direct combat. Such a ship will either be a story factor (characters have to divert it or sabotage it) or a railroading in stat form (it shows up to make the PCs run screaming in the opposite direction). YMMV.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Okay...

I'm very busy with work and real life right now, and Error, your posts regularly cross into tl;dr territory for me, since it is much more difficult to chop quotes from other posts when using a touch screen tablet.

A few points, though:
    Weapon stats (Fire Control, Range and Damage) are representative of multiple factors in weapon design that are constantly in the process of being improved incrementally. A +1 bump in a stat represents either a combination of small technological advances, or a major breakthrough in a single area. If this breakthrough is not repeated in later designs, there is usually a reason, such as an unforeseen flaw in the design. When I replied earlier, I hadn't seen that you had already editted the stats. The incremental shifts you made for the ion cannon and tractor beams are within the scope of what I mentioned above.

    As far as the laser cannon, you conflated two different concepts I mentioned in close proximity. In my system, a laser cannon fires a single blast, where a blaster cannon fires a string of blasts like a machine gun. The laser has better range and higher peak damage, while the blaster's rate of fire allows for better accuracy. A basic laser cannon inflicts 4D damage on most ships, but for whatever reason, WEG stats for Capital Ships put them at 2D, and then neglected to adjust for rule changes that left said weaponry essentially impotent. My fix across the board was to increase existing capital ship starfighter-scale weaponry by 2D across the board to bring them equal with the laser cannon mounted on starfighters and space transports. Your single-barrel laser cannon should be rated at 4D, not 6D.

    I still think it's a bad idea to include dedicated anti-starfighter missile launchers on a ship because of game imbalance; putting this many on a single ship makes it an extremely potent anti-starfighter platform at a time when the Empire didnt consider starfighters to be a major threat.

Also, I never said this ship was worthless; I said I wasn't interested in it. You are free to disagree, but my impression of any ship in my Destroyer-Scale and larger will be next to impossible for a group of PCs to engage in direct combat. Such a ship will either be a story factor (characters have to divert it or sabotage it) or a railroading in stat form (it shows up to make the PCs run screaming in the opposite direction). YMMV.

Thanks for clarifying a lot of this stuff for me. It's exactly what I needed. Sorry about the long posts, I am used to to defending creative decisions. I will try to be more concise on this board for everyone's sake.

I know your thoughts about the homing missiles but I am choosing to leave them. Call it an experiment some engineer at KDY or RSD lobbied hard for.

CRMcNeill wrote:
A +1 bump in a stat represents either a combination of small technological advances, or a major breakthrough in a single area.

If you could tell me where it says that in the RAW I would be eternally grateful.

Before that, it's hard for me to believe every single +1 that gets added to either side of the FC/Damage split represents some kind of technological breakthrough. Surely some of them do, but definitely not all. Like I have said before, there may be many different versions of a given weapon, each with a different FC/Damage split, and some of them may just simply be better because they're more expensive. The fact that a ship from the Rebellion era has a 4D/4D laser cannon on it does not imply that that design is the peak of tech at that time; in fact it implies nothing at all. Do we know for fact there was not a 4D+2/4D+2 cannon available at the same time the ship was built? No. We only know what the builders and engineers chose to place aboard a given ship.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I changed the original post to reflect the stats as I have them currently. They are still technically in beta but they are pretty much where they're going to end up. Here is a link to that post. Any commentary is welcome.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
A +1 bump in a stat represents either a combination of small technological advances, or a major breakthrough in a single area.

If you could tell me where it says that in the RAW I would be eternally grateful.

I'm surprised this concept requires explanation.

Game stats are approximations of the actual capabilities of an object as it would exist in a realistic universe. Under the RAW, if one wished to increase the stats of a turbolaser, he'd roll his Capital Ship Weapon Repair against a Difficulty set by the GM, then get a bonus or a mishap depending on the result of the roll. That single roll represents days or weeks in-universe of precision work tweaking or playing with some facet (or multiple facets) of said turbolaser.

For weapons that are mass-produced literally by the millions for installation on their warships, a company like KDY is going to have an entire company division devoted to weapons research and development, with engineers spending their days running experiments, designing new equipment, improving on previous designs and so on and so forth. A +1 to any KDY stat on a piece of paper represents an in-universe technological advancement by that R&D division. It will be examined in detail, fitted to test-bed platforms to see how it functions in space, stress-tested by a thousand firings, and so on and so forth. Not to mention the bureaucratic wrangling involved in authorizing expenses, adjusting assembly lines to produce the new model, and so on and so forth.

As such, if a mass-produced weapon mounted on ship X, originally built in 15BBY, is replaced by a less powerful weapon on ship Y, built in 5BBY, there needs to be some explanation of why the design was a failure, even though it was slightly more powerful.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
As such, if a mass-produced weapon mounted on ship X, originally built in 15BBY, is replaced by a less powerful weapon on ship Y, built in 5BBY, there needs to be some explanation of why the design was a failure, even though it was slightly more powerful.


Design doesn't have to be a failure for there to be a change.

Maybe the previous weapon manufacturer went out of business, was bought by another company with different goals, or lost the military contract.

Maybe politics influenced the ship design.

Maybe the newer weapon system is cheaper.

When I was in the Navy my ship was using 3"/50 gun mounts instead of 5" guns because the Navy had a ton of surplus ammo dating back to at least WWII. I know cuz in 1990 I took home a pair of spent brass shell casings we fired that were dated as being manufactured in Aug 1942. (my birthday's in Aug.)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are literally thousands of factors that could explain even a general reduction in weaponry over a tiny little decade and maybe 10% of them have to do with design. I do understand every facet of the concept as you see it, I am just less likely to take it at face value.

I'll also say that at base, it comes down to economics. You apply the formula and you get the biggest bang for your buck. Every time. If times are right (necessity) and there is money, improvement might happen. Tech might develop behind the scenes but not at any appreciable level unless money flows into it. The Empire existed for what, less than 25 years? How much private industry did it foster? About none; in fact, didn't the Emperor about grind it out of existence with taxes, while his military seized individual businesses and/or killed the proprietors (see also: Owen/Beru Lars)? I'd be surprised if actual technology in ship-to-ship warfare changed at all during that period in Galactic time, at least if we are talking SWU stage of development with real-world snail's paces and legal bickering. True "technological increases" probably take hundreds if not thousands of years.

But when it comes to specific guns, there would be different models. And more or less expensive ones. And ones with gadgets on them. And ones with laser sights. And more or less expensive models with gadgets on them with laser sights. Ad nauseam. But somewhere in that scheme you find the one that works exactly for what you are doing. Orbital bombardment? Sure! Starfighter defense? That too! Ion cannons? Millions!
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