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8k,19k Super star destroyer discrepancy?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
As far as the Super- designation, there is real world precedent for its use. In particular, the Superdreadnought and Supercarrier, both indicating larger, more capable versions of their predecessors.

And while it is tempting to introduce words like Dreadnought into SWU capital ship classification, and to force said classification to conform to real world standards, I find it best to follow the in-universe evidence. The term "destroyer" has a specific type meaning in the real world, but in the SWU, destroyer has clearly been co-opted to indicate a multi-role heavy combatant, combining the functions of dreadnought, super carrier, and troop transport, among others. As such, a multi-role heavy combatant that is much larger and more powerful than a "normal" destroyer would certainly qualify as a Super Star Destroyer.

As far as scale placement and stat writing, anything destroyer of Dreadnought-Scale on my system would be considered a Super Star Destroyer.

The word Dreadnaught has already been in SWU capital ship classification system since 2012. Check out the Anaxes War College System from The Essential Guide to Warfare. (Granted, these terms may not correlate to their Earth naval designations.) Super Star Destroyers are just dagger-shaped capital ships similar to the classic Imperial Star Destroyer but of the Battlecruiser and Dreadnaught size/classifications.

In your scale system, Dreadnaught scale ships are Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts, right?
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fwiw Im sticking to the 8km Super Star Destroyer.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The word Dreadnaught has already been in SWU capital ship classification system since 2012. Check out the Anaxes War College System from The Essential Guide to Warfare. (Granted, these terms may not correlate to their Earth naval designations.) Super Star Destroyers are just dagger-shaped capital ships similar to the classic Imperial Star Destroyer but of the Battlecruiser and Dreadnaught size/classifications.

Regarding whoever thought up the Anaxes system, I have no knowledge of their qualifications as a military historian. However, I have serious reservations about a naval classification system based purely on size, as it ignores multiple other pertinent factors. Apart from the Guide to Warfare, dreadnought as a classification is mentioned only once, in Han Solo at Star's End. Destroyer is used multiple times in ESB and ROTJ, but there is no mention of Dreadnoughts.

Historically, a dreadnought was a pure ship-to-ship combatant, with little or no capacity for aircraft deployment or assault landings. In that sense, the Invincible-Class Dreadnought from Han Solo at Star's End was spot-on, with heavy armament and no listed starfighter capacity.

As such, in SWU starship classification, I consider "dreadnought" to be an indicator of both size and mission: a big gun combatant with few troops and small craft that can dish out a real hammering with its own weapons, but lacking the power projection versatility found aboard a more versatile craft.

A destroyer, on the other hand, would be a ship that combines the firepower of a dreadnought with other capabilities, such as assault troop transports or fighter wings.

A star cruiser would be a mix of dreadnought and carrier with much less troop capacity, while a battlecruiser would be to a star cruiser what a super star destroyer is to a star destroyer.

Using Dreadnought as a class on my scale system was not my first choice, as I was trying to use only words that actually appeared in the films: frigate, cruiser and destroyer. Unfortunately, because of how I divided the classes, light and heavy cruisers would've ended up in the Frigate-Scale, while Cruiser-Scale would've been next door for the bigger ships (ISDs and MC80s), with Destroyer instead of Dreadnought.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
The word Dreadnaught has already been in SWU capital ship classification system since 2012. Check out the Anaxes War College System from The Essential Guide to Warfare. (Granted, these terms may not correlate to their Earth naval designations.) Super Star Destroyers are just dagger-shaped capital ships similar to the classic Imperial Star Destroyer but of the Battlecruiser and Dreadnaught size/classifications.

... Apart from the Guide to Warfare, dreadnought as a classification is mentioned only once, in Han Solo at Star's End. Destroyer is used multiple times in ESB and ROTJ, but there is no mention of Dreadnoughts.

Historically, a dreadnought was a pure ship-to-ship combatant, with little or no capacity for aircraft deployment or assault landings. In that sense, the Invincible-Class Dreadnought from Han Solo at Star's End was spot-on, with heavy armament and no listed starfighter capacity.

As such, in SWU starship classification, I consider "dreadnought" to be an indicator of both size and mission: a big gun combatant with few troops and small craft that can dish out a real hammering with its own weapons, but lacking the power projection versatility found aboard a more versatile craft.

A destroyer, on the other hand, would be a ship that combines the firepower of a dreadnought with other capabilities, such as assault troop transports or fighter wings.

A star cruiser would be a mix of dreadnought and carrier with much less troop capacity, while a battlecruiser would be to a star cruiser what a super star destroyer is to a star destroyer.

Using Dreadnought as a class on my scale system was not my first choice, as I was trying to use only words that actually appeared in the films: frigate, cruiser and destroyer. Unfortunately, because of how I divided the classes, light and heavy cruisers would've ended up in the Frigate-Scale, while Cruiser-Scale would've been next door for the bigger ships (ISDs and MC80s), with Destroyer instead of Dreadnought.

I just love all the research and thought you put into your Star Wars work.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Regarding whoever thought up the Anaxes system, I have no knowledge of their qualifications as a military historian.

I didn't know you necessarily needed qualifications as a real world military historian to write space opera fluff (I have no knowledge of your "qualifications" either.) You may not agree with all the author's choices, but I think you can at least appreciate his intentions. It seems clear his primary mission was to make better sense out of the existing giant mountain of continuity, not reassign everything to make it make it better correlate to Earth naval conventions. From the article I linked...

Wookieepedia wrote:
This classification system was invented by author Jason Fry to help explain some of the contradictory systems used in Star Wars lore previously.


CRMcNeill wrote:
However, I have serious reservations about a naval classification system based purely on size, as it ignores multiple other pertinent factors.

It is not based "purely" on size. Victory-class is classified as a destroyer even though it is under 1 km. From the article...

Wookieepedia wrote:
Despite the limits on dimensions, the system could sometimes move ship designs up or down in classification, depending on their armament and intended role.

Examples:
    • The Carrack-class light cruiser, which would fall into the Frigate classification with its length of just 350 meters. Due to its armament and role, however, it was moved up into the Cruiser category.
    • The Secutor-class Star Destroyer, a fleet carrier, was classified as a Star Destroyer due to its relatively light armament and focus on starfighter power, despite being 2200 meters long, the same length as the contemporary Allegiance-class battlecruiser.
    • The Subjugator-class heavy cruiser was classified as a Dreadnought, due to its revolutionary ion cannons. Packed into a 4845 meter superstructure, the design would otherwise have been comparable to a large battlecruiser.

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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if we are looking at real world analogies, then a Star Destroter has more in common with an Aircraft carrier than a destroyer.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
Well if we are looking at real world analogies, then a Star Destroter has more in common with an Aircraft carrier than a destroyer.

I just got done saying that Star Wars has co-opted the word destroyer for its own uses. A Star Wars destroyer is a combination battleship / aircraft carrier / assault transport, not the real-world escort ship.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
It is not based "purely" on size. Victory-class is classified as a destroyer even though it is under 1 km.

Okay, primarily based on length, then, but my reservations remain. Size is a function of mission, not the other way around, and a system that classifies ships based on arbitrary numbers at the expense of purpose misses the point. Mikael Hasselstein made the point in another topic that a size-based system impresses politicians and civilians, but has no real military value.

AFAIAC, the Anaxes system's only accomplishment is to add an additional layer of confusion on top of the confusion that was already there.

Which is why I questioned Jason Fry's credentials. It's a silly system that impresses only those who don't know any better.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, the Anaxes War College System is a horrible system and makes matters worse. Got it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
And while it is tempting to introduce words like Dreadnought into SWU capital ship classification...

I only even brought it up because of this clause of your sentence. By stating that "it is tempting to introduce words like Dreadnought into SWU capital ship classification" you are stating it does not already exist. You were incorrect. It does. You not accepting the system is another matter. I was merely pointing the system out because it seemed you did not even know of it's existence.

If you're meaning all along was "The Anaxes War College System is garbage. Let us not speak of that system and let's pretend it doesn't exist. Let's only speak of possible fan-based classification systems that we can devise here. And while it is tempting to introduce words like Dreadnought into SWU capital ship classification..." then that whole implied preface was completely lost on me. If you were speaking of a possible fan-created substitute for the existing system, then I was completely oblivious to that in this thread.

And doesn't the word Dreadnought exist in your scale system anyway? Either here or in a new thread, could you please present your entire capital ship classification system with respect to your scale system and provide lists of examples for each category? That would really help us a lot! Thank you.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah. My focus was more on people insisting on replacing the word "destroyer" with the word "dreadnought", even though there is no canonical basis to do so. I believe there is a place for a sub-classification of capital ships called dreadnought, but that it would be distinct from destroyer, for the reasons I described above.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that the term dreadnought could evolve in the SWU; it's simply a different way of saying "fears nothing".
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Ah. My focus was more on people insisting on replacing the word "destroyer" with the word "dreadnought", even though there is no canonical basis to do so. I believe there is a place for a sub-classification of capital ships called dreadnought, but that it would be distinct from destroyer, for the reasons I described above.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that the term dreadnought could evolve in the SWU; it's simply a different way of saying "fears nothing".

Thanks for clarifying. I'm still a little confused but that's ok.

CRMcNeill wrote:
So, up to this point, my scale system has gone through six different variations. Here's #7, addressing the concerns I mentioned above. It should be the last one. We'll see...
    Character 0D
    Swoop +2D (+8)
    Speeder +4D (+16)
    Starship +6D (+24)
    Walker +8D (+32)
    Frigate +10D (+40)
    Destroyer +12D (+48)
    Dreadnought +16D (+64)
    Death Star +24D (+96)
So, the explanations are as follows:
    Swoop - Flitter just wasn't working for me, so I decided to change this class to Swoop, including Speeder Bikes, Swoops and Repulsor-Sleds, all of which will now use the Swoop Operations skill.

    Destroyer - The 4D gap between Frigate and Destroyer wasn't working for me, either. The RAW's +6D split between starfighters and capital ships makes the big ships hard enough to damage as it is, so I decided to move Destroyer back to the RAW's modifier of +12D, putting it 6D above starfighters and 2D above Frigate.

    Dreadnought - Because of some other considerations (particularly a House Rule that applied Scale modifiers to the Difficulty of performing Maneuvers, I decided to put Dreadnought-Class back into play for the really big monster ships, like the Executor.

To clarify, here is the revised list of what-goes-where:

Dreadnought:
-Super Star Destroyer

Destroyer:
-Imperial Star Destroyer
-Victory Star Destroyer
-Torpedo Sphere
-Mon Calamari Cruiser

Frigate:
-Dreadnaught-Class Cruiser
-Alliance Assault Cruiser
-Interdictor
-Strike Cruiser
-Escort Carrier
-Carrack Light Cruiser
-Alliance Bulk Carrier
-Star Galleon
-Nebulon B Frigate
-Lancer-Class Frigate
-Corellian Corvette
-Corellian Gunship
-System Patrol Craft
-Assault Shuttle
-Blastboat
-Luxury Liner
-Container Ship
-Bulk Transport
-Medium Transport

Walker:
-AT-AT
-Juggernaut
-Mobile Command Base
-Chariot Command Speeder
-Hoverscout
-Alliance Freerunner
-Heavy Tracker
-Speeder Truck
-Sail Barge

Starship:
-Light Freighters
-Space Barges
-All starfighter types
-Cloud Cars

Speeder:
-AT-ST
-Landspeeders
-Airspeeders
-Compact Assault Vehicle
-ULAV
-Tramp Shuttle
-Skiff

Swoop:
-Speeder Bikes
-Swoops
-Repulsor Sled

EDIT: Added the Dreadnought-Scale class, as discussed on the following page.

I found this gem buried in the middle of p. 8 of your scale thread. I saved a bookmark of that page to not have to dig through the whole thread for it. Good stuff!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I mentioned above, I was never fully satisfied with using the word "Dreadnought" as the name for that Scale class. My views on the use of Dreadnought as a descriptor of mission just enhances that dissatisfaction.

I'm strongly considering replacing Dreadnought by going back to Capital Ship. The real world definition of Capital Ship is "a leading or primary ship in a naval fleet" or "a large warship such as a battleship or aircraft carrier." Based on that, WEG's use of Capital Ship was far too broadly defined. Using it to classify just the largest, most powerful ships in space is far more appropriate.

Using that, a Dreadnought would be a pure space combatant at Destroyer Scale, while a Superdreadnought would be the same writ large at Capital Ship Scale.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I was never fully satisfied with using the word "Dreadnought" as the name for that Scale class. My views on the use of Dreadnought as a descriptor of mission just enhances that dissatisfaction.

I'm strongly considering replacing Dreadnought by going back to Capital Ship. The real world definition of Capital Ship is "a leading or primary ship in a naval fleet" or "a large warship such as a battleship or aircraft carrier." Based on that, WEG's use of Capital Ship was far too broadly defined. Using it to classify just the largest, most powerful ships in space is far more appropriate.

Using that, a Dreadnought would be a pure space combatant at Destroyer Scale, while a Superdreadnought would be the same writ large at Capital Ship Scale.

Thanks. That helps a lot.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a related aside, would you guys recommend the SW Essential Guide to Warfare? Someone mentioned it above. I found it at a local book store, but I wasn't sure how old the information was or whether the content was worth the money. The classifications of ships based on size (also occasionally altered by role) makes sense to me...the Anaxes War College warship classification stuff seems to be adequate for most situations; it only really breaks down when you are trying to manage matters of scale.

EDIT 1: I was just thinking about this, but where is the observation deck on the Executor where Vader is standing, for example, when the Millennium Falcon escapes to hyperspace at the end of The Empire Strikes Back? It's shaped like it's in the very front tip of the vessel, which is why I ask, because that would be an awful place for it.

EDIT 2:
CRMcNeill wrote:
As I mentioned above, I was never fully satisfied with using the word "Dreadnought" as the name for that Scale class. My views on the use of Dreadnought as a descriptor of mission just enhances that dissatisfaction.

I'm strongly considering replacing Dreadnought by going back to Capital Ship. The real world definition of Capital Ship is "a leading or primary ship in a naval fleet" or "a large warship such as a battleship or aircraft carrier." Based on that, WEG's use of Capital Ship was far too broadly defined. Using it to classify just the largest, most powerful ships in space is far more appropriate.

Using that, a Dreadnought would be a pure space combatant at Destroyer Scale, while a Superdreadnought would be the same writ large at Capital Ship Scale.

Agreed...WEG's definition needs a little more subdividing, but not into a million billion classes. More like 3-5. (IMO)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
As a related aside, would you guys recommend the SW Essential Guide to Warfare? Someone mentioned it above. I found it at a local book store, but I wasn't sure how old the information was or whether the content was worth the money. The classifications of ships based on size (also occasionally altered by role) makes sense to me...the Anaxes War College warship classification stuff seems to be adequate for most situations; it only really breaks down when you are trying to manage matters of scale.

I've looked through it, and was not particularly impressed. I don't consider myself an expert on the military, but my impression was that this book more of a layman's guide to warfare in the SWU. I've never really felt the need to buy it.

Quote:
the Executor where Vader is standing, for example, when the Millennium Falcon escapes to hyperspace at the end of The Empire Strikes Back? It's shaped like it's in the very front tip of the vessel, which is why I ask, because that would be an awful place for it.

Actually, scenes immediately previous to this showed Vader on the Executor's bridge, issuing commands to Admiral Piett.

Quote:
WEG's definition needs a little more subdividing, but not into a million billion classes. More like 3-5. (IMO)

That's pretty much what I did. Under WEG's 2R&E Rules, Capital Ship was at +12D. My system uses Frigate at +10D, Destroyer at +12D and Dreadnought at +16D (although, as I mentioned, I'm strongly considering changing Dreadnought to Capital Ship).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally have always considered ships beyond the 100 meter mark to be "capital" ships. Or maybe that is an arbitrary line and 250 would make more sense, or another value. In the Thrawn trilogy for example, capital ships is used more in this sense; I mean a ship bigger than a blockade runner basically. The Katana Fleet Dreadnaught-class cruisers were "capital" ships at 600 meters for example. Freight liners are huge ships also.

Is there such a thing a cruiser class in your configuration? That would be my only thought...

Though of course I like the general configuration you propose. Makes the most sense to me too.
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