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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Exactly. If you look through the Ships & Equipment section, you'll see a lot of my work restating and reimagining quite a few WEG ships, as well as ships from other media.
For the purposes of this conversation, there are several homebrew (and yet-to-be homebrew) ships that can be classified under this system:Destroyer
Allegiance-Class Star Destroyer (Dark Empire & fractalsponge)
Secutor-Class Fleet Carrier (Dark Empire & fractalsponge)
Dauntless-Class Star Cruiser (Star Wars Rebellion)
Liberator-Class Star Cruiser (Star Wars Rebellion)
Dreadnought / Capital Ship
Bulwark-Class Battlecruiser (Star Wars Rebellion)
MC75 "Home One" Battlecruiser
Praetor-Class Battlecruiser (Classic comics & fractalsponge)
Bellator-Class Super Star Destroyer (Dark Empire & fractalsponge)
There are a lot more; most of my homebrew stats predate my scale system, so I need to go back and do some editting...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 601
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:30 pm Post subject: 8km vs. 17.6 km vs. 19km vs. 19.2 km SSD discrepancy? |
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Yes, Yes it is!
My ongoing New Republic campaign ran off & on from c.1997 to c.2015, spanning ≈20-25 ABY.
Throughout i had 2.2 km Allegiance-class SDs, 8 km Super-class Star Destroyers, 10.1 km Vengeance-class Star Super Destroyers, 17.6 km Executor-class Star Super Destroyers & some homebrew SSDs.....
1 miles = 1.6 km Imperator/Imperial-class SD, Tector-class SD,
1.6 miles = 2.2 km Allegiance-class SD,
2 miles = 3.2 km
3 miles = 4.8 km
3.125 miles = 5.0 km
3.75 miles = 6.0 km
4 miles = 6.4 km
4.5 miles = 7.2 km Ansel Hsiao's Bellator-Class Star Dreadnought
5 miles = 8.0 km Super-class Star Destroyer, Ansel Hsiao's Mandator-Class Star Dreadnought
6 miles = 9.6 km
6.3125 miles = 10.1 km Vengeance, Lord Jerec's SSD, now retconned to 19 km
7 miles = 11.2 km
8 miles = 12.8 km multiple
8.5 miles = 13.6 km ??
9 miles = 14.4 km
9.375 miles = 15.0 km Sovereign-class Super Star Destroyer
10 miles = 16.0 km
10.9375 miles = 17.5 km Eclipse-class dreadnought/Eclipse-class Super Star Destroyer,
11 miles = 17.6 km Executor-class Star Dreadnought
11.875 miles = 19.0 km ??Executor-class Star Dreadnought??
12 miles = 19.2 km Sovereign II-class Super Star Destroyer*
13 miles = 20.8 km Eclipse III-class Super Star Destroyer, only 2 made, both eventually destroyed*
*homebrew SSDs
(List corrected)
So what i'd like to know, which is considered to be more accurate for the Executor-class? 17.6 km, 19.0 km or 19.2 km?
*❄edit❄*
RE-reading "History of the 5-Mile Fallacy" while a fair bit more awake, answers the question i had! Thank you, Whill!
❄The ANSWER❄:
| Whill wrote: |
Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy (04) states that the Executor's length is "nearly a dozen times the length of a star destroyer." That's nearly 19.2 km. I own every single source mentioned above and I double-checked each source myself. From this point forward, most books and reference guides started saying 19 km, which is a little less than 19.2 km.
Lucasfilm continuity checker Leland Chee officially stated the 19 km is to be more consistent with the films themselves. This 19km figure was entered into the holocron of official Star Wars continuity as film canon. This was an official statement from Lucasfilm on the matter! So let's summarize:
(1) ILM's basis of comparison for the special effects was Executor being 11 times the size of ISD.
(2) When measuring direct film evidence a little more precisely than eye-thumbing it, it stands up to the factor of 11 comparison, thus showing that ILM's goal was pretty accurately realized on film.
(3) A vague comment on relative Executor size was published in 1984, and a flat-out incorrect statement of size was published by WEG in 1989. This error was repeated over the years.
(4) The correct size comparison was published by Lucasfilm with a direct quote of ILM in 1995. Some sources continued to cite WEG's error anyway.
(5) In 2004 a true size comparison statement was published that's much closer to ILM's intended standard and final product, and this statement became the official status quo.
(6) Lucasfilm made an official public statement on the matter, making the 19 km figure film canon. I don't know how I can possibly state this any more clearly: The Executor is NOT only five times the length of an ISD. It's not even close. By design, it is about 11 times. Lucasfilm has officially stated a figure of 19 km. |
Last edited by Inquisitor1138 on Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:57 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Noteworthy that you included Fractalsponge's Bellator twice, at 7.2 and 8.0 kilometers.
Personally, I'd throw out the Sovereign in its entirety, in favor of Fractal's Assertor-Class, which is just slightly shorter than an Executor (~15 kilometers), but is equipped with an axial superlaser. The Sovereign never really existed outside of the Dark Empire Sourcebook anyway, and has never had a truly decent rendering, certainly not to the level of the Assertor-Class.
There are several other Fractal projects that fit well into the larger end of the Imperial Murderwedge subgroup.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 601
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Noteworthy that you included Fractalsponge's Bellator twice, at 7.2 and 8.0 kilometers. |
Comes with the territory; contradictory sources & i didn't have the Rancor Pit to help me then...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Personally, I'd throw out the Sovereign in its entirety, in favor of Fractal's Assertor-Class, which is just slightly shorter than an Executor (~15 kilometers), but is equipped with an axial superlaser. The Sovereign never really existed outside of the Dark Empire Sourcebook anyway, and has never had a truly decent rendering, certainly not to the level of the Assertor-Class.
There are several other Fractal projects that fit well into the larger end of the Imperial Murderwedge subgroup. |
Q, "Even gods have their favorites." |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14031
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:33 am Post subject: |
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I've always liked the soverign. BUT i've always hated it was Just a little smaller than the eclipse.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:14 am Post subject: |
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Something just occurred to me regarding the Executor: the WEG stats have it entirely too slow. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, how is a Space 4 ship supposed to chase and keep pace with a Space 8 ship? The gang over in the Fractalsponge Discord have long asserted that the Executor was intended as something of a battlecruiser writ large, in that it had the speed to chase smaller ships and the guns to obliterate them (in many ways, it was intended to enforce the loyalty of the Imperial Fleet as much as it was to fight their opponents).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inquisitor1138
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Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Something just occurred to me regarding the Executor: the WEG stats have it entirely too slow. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, how is a Space 4 ship supposed to chase and keep pace with a Space 8 ship? The gang over in the Fractalsponge Discord have long asserted that the Executor was intended as something of a battlecruiser writ large, in that it had the speed to chase smaller ships and the guns to obliterate them (in many ways, it was intended to enforce the loyalty of the Imperial Fleet as much as it was to fight their opponents). |
Good catch! At Space 5 they can go all-out for Space 10, keeping pace with TIE fighters & running down anything slower than a TIE!
This also supports my idea for a Space 7 fleet! |
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Something just occurred to me regarding the Executor: the WEG stats have it entirely too slow. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, how is a Space 4 ship supposed to chase and keep pace with a Space 8 ship? The gang over in the Fractalsponge Discord have long asserted that the Executor was intended as something of a battlecruiser writ large, in that it had the speed to chase smaller ships and the guns to obliterate them (in many ways, it was intended to enforce the loyalty of the Imperial Fleet as much as it was to fight their opponents). |
Good catch! At Space 5 they can go all-out for Space 10, keeping pace with TIE fighters & running down anything slower than a TIE!
This also supports my idea for a Space 7 fleet! |
There has to be some explanation how the Executor caught the Falcon... in the case of sailing ships, the larger and longer ships tended to be faster, but that is a function of friction and drag on the water. In space, these do not apply, the the engines would just flat out have to be more powerful proportionally and create more thrust. There goes the physics creeping into Star Wars again! |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | Good catch! At Space 5 they can go all-out for Space 10, keeping pace with TIE fighters & running down anything slower than a TIE!
This also supports my idea for a Space 7 fleet! |
But at Space 5, the Falcon could simply go to Full or All-Out and power away from it. I was thinking Space 6 (as fast as ISDs), but that's still questionable w/r/t chasing the Falcon.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| The Executor had to be fast because the Falcon's only hope of outrunning it (and the two ISDs from ANH) was to jump to hyperspace. Perhaps the problem is also that the Falcon should not be Space 8. After all, the legendary speed of the Falcon was its hyperspace speed not its sublight speed. It only has a faster sublight speed because of the WEG stats that were trying to make it super cool. It is still a hunk of junk after all. |
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Inquisitor1138
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Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I've always liked the soverign. BUT i've always hated it was Just a little smaller than the eclipse. |
That is one of the many reasons i had to make the Sovereign II-class bigger. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14031
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Something just occurred to me regarding the Executor: the WEG stats have it entirely too slow. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, how is a Space 4 ship supposed to chase and keep pace with a Space 8 ship? The gang over in the Fractalsponge Discord have long asserted that the Executor was intended as something of a battlecruiser writ large, in that it had the speed to chase smaller ships and the guns to obliterate them (in many ways, it was intended to enforce the loyalty of the Imperial Fleet as much as it was to fight their opponents). |
YEa, space 4 IS kind of slow, in comparison to fighters, and even freighters. BUT when most other cap ships are also around space 4, it does make sense... AND unlike the falcon, it didn't HAVE to move around asteroids.. The falcon did!
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | The Executor had to be fast because the Falcon's only hope of outrunning it (and the two ISDs from ANH) was to jump to hyperspace. Perhaps the problem is also that the Falcon should not be Space 8. After all, the legendary speed of the Falcon was its hyperspace speed not its sublight speed. It only has a faster sublight speed because of the WEG stats that were trying to make it super cool. It is still a hunk of junk after all. |
Well based on the rules, you CAN modify a ships 'space speed' four steps, and YT-1300s start AT a base 4, so it appears the falcon has been MAX MODDED..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I've always liked the soverign. BUT i've always hated it was Just a little smaller than the eclipse. |
That is one of the many reasons i had to make the Sovereign II-class bigger. |
The problem here is that, when you are keeping the same class name but it is sufficiently different to merit a separate "type" designation, it takes the form of upgrades to the same basic hull. When you build a new ship that is multiple kilometers longer than its predecessor class, it is now a completely new ship, not an "Original II-Class". A Sovereign stretched by 2+ kilometers is no longer a Sovereign; it's a... Whatevor-Class.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | The Executor had to be fast because the Falcon's only hope of outrunning it (and the two ISDs from ANH) was to jump to hyperspace. Perhaps the problem is also that the Falcon should not be Space 8. After all, the legendary speed of the Falcon was its hyperspace speed not its sublight speed. It only has a faster sublight speed because of the WEG stats that were trying to make it super cool. It is still a hunk of junk after all. |
The missing factor, IMO, is reliability. This isn't really reflected in the ship stats, but is hinted at in the Long Distance Movement Rules (2R&E pg. 125), where a ship has an increasing chance of some sort of engine failure the longer the engine runs at anything above Cruising. Game-wise, ships roll their Hull dice against a Difficulty that increases over time (depending on what Speed they're moving). My thinking is that ships should have a Reliability Modifier that is applied to the Hull dice when making a Long Distance Movement roll. A front-line Star Destroyer in good repair might have a modifier of +1D or more, while a hunk of junk like the Falcon would have a -3D or -4D.
The net effect is that, while the Falcon is absolutely fast in short bursts, it can't do so over long distances, because it is highly likely that something in the engine will take a poodu. Han knows this, and thus he doesn't push the engines hard unless he has no other choice, particularly if he knows he's looking at a long chase (like running from star destroyers when his hyperdrive is out of commission). A Star Destroyer, on the other hand, can run at All-Out for quite some time before it has to back down.
As an aside, I'm also looking at applying the Reliability Modifier more broadly than just to Long Distance Movement, using a similar system to inflict random damage to the ship if it goes too long without proper maintenance.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | YEa, space 4 IS kind of slow, in comparison to fighters, and even freighters. BUT when most other cap ships are also around space 4, it does make sense... AND unlike the falcon, it didn't HAVE to move around asteroids.. The falcon did! |
The only time the Executor chased the Falcon was at the end of the film, and there were no asteroids around to get in the way.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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