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Flashbangs and smoke powder
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Error
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:36 pm    Post subject: Flashbangs and smoke powder Reply with quote

Are there write-ups or conversions for either the basic "flash bang" (as used by the military and/or the police) or "smoke powder" (like a ninja might use; could even be a smoke grenade that detonates on impact, though I like powder more.)

The Rancor Pit conversions "Weapons Stats" documents does not seem to contain anything like these two items.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to figure out what skill would be good to resist a flashbang.

I'd be inclined to say that it does X damage, resisted with [Skill]. Blinding lasts depending on how bad the damage is... wounded would be 1D minutes, mortally wounded would be "Until Healed with Bacta or surgery". A "wounded" result wouldn't actually wound you... just determine how long you're blinded.

For smoke pellets, I'd give you concealment for a certain amount of time, in a certain radius. Might reduce it due to environmental conditions (high wind, whatever) but a round of total concealment in a meter diameter is pretty reasonable for a few credits.

Might also check some of the d6 games, to see if they've got anything.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check This thread out for how i handle flash bangs.. As for the ninja like smoke grenades they would just create a quick small smoke screen..
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Check This thread out for how i handle flash bangs.. As for the ninja like smoke grenades they would just create a quick small smoke screen..

A thick small smokescreen is pretty much what I'm looking for, as the char in question has high Acrobatics and I want her to do the whole ninja escape thing. I am looking for a diameter of at least two meters at a height of one meter off the ground.

Sounds like the pellets would be pretty perfect for this application.

Thanks guys.

EDIT: Does anyone know of a RAW or house-ruled smoke pellet? Links are uber-appreciated.

As for the flashbang thing, they fall under the category of "stun grenades", but the issue at hand is that they do not do the same things that current SW D6 "stun grenades" do. One of the SW D6 ones even covers you in goo and you get stuck to the floor so that you cannot escape for X rounds or something. Now that, I liked. But I want to figure out what to do about a flashbang first.

You are gonna have three effects, all temporary (except in corner cases of the last):

- blindness
- disorientation
- decrease in hearing

These things should last for like 1D rounds (that'd be the duration roll), but we need to figure out what to roll "for success" and what to roll that skill, attribute, grenade DC, or whatever "against".

I prefer one roll of 3D against all the folks inside ten meters of the blast vs. their Perception attribute, or maybe there is an existing chart I would use. Unfortunately the ones with higher PER are gonna get the shorter end of the stick on this one, and that is my intention.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:49 pm    Post subject: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) Reply with quote

What about something like this? This is just a rough draft.

Flashbang (one word) is to be an impact-detonated explosive stun grenade with a duration of effect of 2D rounds.

Beings within a 20-meter radius of the detonation roll their Perception attribute vs. 2D+1. If one or more of those beings win their roll, the flashbang affects them. Those within 30 meters roll against 3D+1, those within 40 roll against 4D+1, and those within 50 to 75 roll against 6D+1.

A being affected by a flashbang will be so in three areas: vision, audition, and coordination. Of course, there will be shielded spots in the radius of a flashbangs detonation blast, and beings in such spots may be protected partially or entirely from its effects. This would be particularly true in crowded places, places with walls, and places with numerous other barriers. It is the purview of the GM to make such decisions; however, as a player, if you think something should be shielded from the effects of a flashbang, it may well make sense to bring your thoughts to your GMs attention.

Individuals affected by a flashbang receive a -2D penalty to the attributes Dexterity, Perception, and Mechanical (and to all the skills under each) for the duration of the grenades effect (2D rounds), though no decrease of an attribute can go beyond a given speciess minimum.


So yeah. I like it. Simple, elegant, and easy to use. Anyone have thoughts or improvements? I think I'm going to stick with the basic design, but I do like notes.
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Last edited by Error on Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:06 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it coes to flash bangs, I'd be inclined to impose an initiative penalty for a round or two.

As for resisting the effects, I'd rule that you roll perceprion against the grenade's damage (and, yes, I'd say that higher perception resists the effects of the flashbag better than lowr perception).

Then, I'd make a damage chart that details the duration of the penalty, but the maximum penalty would not be more than 3 runds and probably no more than -3D to initiative (or perception in general) for a truly spectacular "damage" roll.

One way to cover the disorientation would be to require a search check as a victim's first action each round (perhaps moderate difficulty in order to be able to correctly identify friends and foes) before any other actions can be taken.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) Reply with quote

Error wrote:
What about something like this? This is just a rough draft.

Flashbang (one word) is to be an impact-detonated explosive stun grenade with a duration of effect of 2D rounds.

Beings within a 20-meter radius of the detonation roll their Perception attribute vs. 2D+1. If one or more of those beings win their roll, the flashbang affects them. Those within 30 meters roll against 3D+1, those within 40 roll against 4D+1, and those within 50 to 75 roll against 6D+1.


Wait, so the higher your Perception the more vulnerable you are? An inversion of usual damage mechanics?

Quote:

Individuals affected by a flashbang receive a -2D penalty to the attributes Dexterity, Perception, and Mechanical (and to all the skills under each) for the duration of the grenades effect (2D rounds), though no decrease of an attribute can go beyond a given speciess minimum.


I'd say 2D from everything but MAYBE Strength... I don't think being deaf and blind will be that conducive to Technical skills, nor to Knowledge. It would also detract from Brawling, too.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Error wrote:
What about something like this? This is just a rough draft.

Flashbang (one word) is to be an impact-detonated explosive stun grenade with a duration of effect of 2D rounds.

Beings within a 20-meter radius of the detonation roll their Perception attribute vs. 2D+1. If one or more of those beings win their roll, the flashbang affects them. Those within 30 meters roll against 3D+1, those within 40 roll against 4D+1, and those within 50 to 75 roll against 6D+1.


Wait, so the higher your Perception the more vulnerable you are? An inversion of usual damage mechanics?

Quote:

Individuals affected by a flashbang receive a -2D penalty to the attributes Dexterity, Perception, and Mechanical (and to all the skills under each) for the duration of the grenades effect (2D rounds), though no decrease of an attribute can go beyond a given speciess minimum.


I'd say 2D from everything but MAYBE Strength... I don't think being deaf and blind will be that conducive to Technical skills, nor to Knowledge. It would also detract from Brawling, too.

Yes, in my book, the higher your Perception, the more vulnerable you are to the effects of a flashbang. It follows that individuals with more sensitive senses would be affected more easily than those who are blind and deaf, right? So that's how I'd convert it.

I appreciate your suggestion that -2D from everything except STR makes sense. However, I must counter it with this: How would a flashbang influence my knowledge about the Coruscani starsystem? It wouldn't. How would it affect my capability of programming a droid? It wouldn't, except I couldn't see to do it; but that wouldn't affect the attribute itself. As for "maybe" affecting Strength, I would again ask...how? A flashbang wouldn't influence my ability to lift a large weapon, but it would certainly affect my ability to aim it.

Naaman wrote:
When it coes to flash bangs, I'd be inclined to impose an initiative penalty for a round or two.

As for resisting the effects, I'd rule that you roll perceprion against the grenade's damage (and, yes, I'd say that higher perception resists the effects of the flashbag better than lowr perception).

Then, I'd make a damage chart that details the duration of the penalty, but the maximum penalty would not be more than 3 runds and probably no more than -3D to initiative (or perception in general) for a truly spectacular "damage" roll.

One way to cover the disorientation would be to require a search check as a victim's first action each round (perhaps moderate difficulty in order to be able to correctly identify friends and foes) before any other actions can be taken.

1. I agree about the initiative penalty, though -2D to PER should cover that.

2. I disagree that higher PER decreases rather than increases one's liability to be affected by a flashbang.

3. I disagree that three rounds is sufficient time to shake off the effects of a flashbang. Look up information on real life ones on the internetyou will read that the effects last for minutes, not seconds. That's why I have my duration set at 2D rounds, though it should really be more.

4. I like the idea of a Search check at the beginning of each round, but for me as a GM, the less rolls the better. I'd handle it thusly: if an individual affected by a flashbang wants to search for something dropped or on another person, he or she would need to check Search anyway, and it would already be at -2D.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not make it say 4d rounds.. that way you can easily get into the minutes time frame
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) Reply with quote

Error wrote:
MrNexx wrote:


I'd say 2D from everything but MAYBE Strength... I don't think being deaf and blind will be that conducive to Technical skills, nor to Knowledge. It would also detract from Brawling, too.

Yes, in my book, the higher your Perception, the more vulnerable you are to the effects of a flashbang. It follows that individuals with more sensitive senses would be affected more easily than those who are blind and deaf, right? So that's how I'd convert it.

I appreciate your suggestion that -2D from everything except STR makes sense. However, I must counter it with this: How would a flashbang influence my knowledge about the Coruscani starsystem? It wouldn't. How would it affect my capability of programming a droid? It wouldn't, except I couldn't see to do it; but that wouldn't affect the attribute itself. As for "maybe" affecting Strength, I would again ask...how? A flashbang wouldn't influence my ability to lift a large weapon, but it would certainly affect my ability to aim it.


You're blinded, your ears are ringing... how well are you going to be able to recall detailed information about the Coruscani system? How are you going to program a droid when you can't see the screen, can't hear its responses to changes you've made?

These penalties don't damage the attribute, but they do affect your ability to make use of the attribute and its associated skills. Strength is the obvious exception, except for Brawling.

As for the way your damage works, it makes sense... it just seems counter-intuitive. What if you changed it to where it does damage based on the Perception of the target, which is resisted by STR or Willpower? So, If I have a 3D perception, it will do 3D+3D at the center, 3D+2D further out, usw, while someone with a 2D perception will take 2D+3D?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd argue that it depends on the type of protective gear being worn by characters within the range of a flash bangs effects.

For example if the scenario takes place during a space ship boarding action flash bangs wouldn't have any effect on someone wearing zero-g space trooper armor.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
I'd argue that it depends on the type of protective gear being worn by characters within the range of a flash bangs effects.

For example if the scenario takes place during a space ship boarding action flash bangs wouldn't have any effect on someone wearing zero-g space trooper armor.


Yeah, but that would be an armoring effect, right? I mean, it's also going to have less effect on a species with a nictitating membrane.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Yeah, but that would be an armoring effect, right? I mean, it's also going to have less effect on a species with a nictitating membrane.


Yes to both.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Model: Ningal & Varr G8 Flashbang
Type: Flashbang-style stun grenade
Scale: Character
Skill: Grenade
Cost: 200-500 (depends on market)
Availability: 2, R
Range: 0-10/20/30
Blast Radius: Negligible, though it may affect beings up to 30 m away
Damage: n/a
Effect: The flashbang is an impact-detonated explosive stun grenade with a duration of effect of 2D rounds. Beings within a 0-5 m radius of the detonation make a Perception check vs. very easy (5); those within 6-10 m make a Perception check vs. easy (10); those within 11-15 m make a Perception check vs. moderate (15); and those within 16 to 30 m of the detonation make a Perception check vs. very difficult (25). All beings who win their Perception checks will be affected by the flashbang. Individuals affected receive a -2D penalty to Dexterity, Perception, and Mechanical (and to all the skills under them) for the duration of the grenades effect (2D roundsrolled separately for each individual). No decrease of an attribute can go beyond a given species minimum.
Game Notes:
Of course, there will be shielded spots in the radius of the flashbangs detonation blast. Beings in such spots may be protected partially or entirely from its effects. This would be particularly true in crowded places, places with walls, and places with numerous other barriers. It is the purview of the GM to make such decisions; however, as a player, if you think something should be shielded from the effects of a flashbang, it may well make sense to bring your thoughts to your GMs attention. It is also good (when determining penalties) to take into account an individuals anatomy and other factors (one being could be wearing headphones, for example, and another being may only see in ultraviolet, and this would change the way a flashbang would affect them).
Source: User Error from The Rancor Pit
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Last edited by Error on Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Why not make it say 4d rounds.. that way you can easily get into the minutes time frame

I decided to stay with 2D rounds because more pretty much means "will not be any help this combat," whereas with 2D there's a chance of it wearing off pretty quickly and the affected PC can rejoin the battle. Sitting watching is no fun!

MrNexx wrote:
You're blinded, your ears are ringing... how well are you going to be able to recall detailed information about the Coruscani system? How are you going to program a droid when you can't see the screen, can't hear its responses to changes you've made?

If I'm blind and my ears are ringing, I'm still going to be able to tell you about the diner I ate at on Coruscant that morning, how many moons are in the system, what are the best routes to take cross-system, what the core of the planet is made of, the name of the senator from Florrum, all of it. If (as you say below) these penalties don't damage the attribute, why would I change it at all? Flashbangs as I write them affect a person physically and no other way. I don't see myself budging on this. The only thing I could see changing is KNO and TEC skills taking one round longer (unlikely to happen) -or- any skill that requires vision or hearing may just be inoperative, and as for Brawling, that's the only other attribute or skill I could see penalizing, though if I have a PC in my group who wants to brawl after a flashbang (instead of concentrating on leaving the battlefield), well then that's his or her choice to be "naturally selected".

There is scant chance of writing these up "as close to real world as possible" without paragraph after paragraph of "ifs" and "whens" and "this is effected this much, while that is affected that much"-es. I'm not going to do it, and I think anyone who can't make a grenade design relatively elegant is either emphasizing perfect accuracy over flow of play or is just bored out of their mind. No offense intended specifically at you, MrNexx, but there seems to be this trend on this forum for homebrews and house rules to try to get "as close to reality as possible" whereas if you stop and actually look at the WEG source material, almost every item is simple to read, understand, use, and handle as a PC or a GM. They could have written up what happens when a person gets hit with one end of a gaffi stick rather than its other, but they didn't. Niggling over details is outside the spirit of the game.

MrNexx wrote:
These penalties don't damage the attribute, but they do affect your ability to make use of the attribute and its associated skills. Strength is the obvious exception, except for Brawling.

As for the way your damage works, it makes sense... it just seems counter-intuitive. What if you changed it to where it does damage based on the Perception of the target, which is resisted by STR or Willpower? So, If I have a 3D perception, it will do 3D+3D at the center, 3D+2D further out, usw, while someone with a 2D perception will take 2D+3D?

It's kind of the point of a flashbang that you don't take damage (unless it detonates against your skin). It's light and sound, that's it. There's no DC for the "damage" of light or sound unless someone has homebrewed it or made a large light source into some kind of radiant weapon.

With a flashbang you don't take 4D or 2D or any die code worth of damage; you are either affected by it or not. It's up to the GM to consider things like range when assessing penalties.
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