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Rogue One (original spoilers thread)
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've gotta say, this production of Rogue One as an audiobook is one of the best productions I've ever heard. It really is excellent.
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alien Compendium: Rogue One

Not in depth but I thought I would share anyway.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another item from WEG's D6 Star Wars game becomes canon: Tierfon Base.

The base first saw the light of day as a sample base for players in The Star Wars Sourcebook.

The squadron symbol from that base is seen in both Rogue One and The Force Awakens. I understand that one of the YA books featuring Rey goes into detail about that helmet Rey wears with the Tierfon symbol on it.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Tierfon Yellow Aces, specifically.

You know, when Disney bought the property and basically torched the EU, people FREAKED OUT (well, some people in my circles, anyway). And yes, they threw out the plot stuff because, obviously, they had to unless they were gonna set the story, like, 500 years in the future or something.

But I knew they'd be hanging on to stuff like the WEG source material. It simply made zero sense to toss out all of the world-building that had been done for them already. They obviously won't keep everything, but there's such a wealth of material just sitting there, waiting to be used that you had to expect they'd hang on to a lot of it.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
The Tierfon Yellow Aces, specifically.

You know, when Disney bought the property and basically torched the EU, people FREAKED OUT (well, some people in my circles, anyway). And yes, they threw out the plot stuff because, obviously, they had to unless they were gonna set the story, like, 500 years in the future or something.

But I knew they'd be hanging on to stuff like the WEG source material. It simply made zero sense to toss out all of the world-building that had been done for them already. They obviously won't keep everything, but there's such a wealth of material just sitting there, waiting to be used that you had to expect they'd hang on to a lot of it.


Having the Ghorman Massacre recanonized from 17 BBY to 2 BBY was a particularly nice touch that I appreciated just because I could use it as part of my character's backstory in a classic era/Rebellion campaign.

And LOTS of people squee'd when we found that Thrawn was getting recanonized in Rebels. Myself among them, I'm not ashamed to admit.

Yeah, I'm happy so far with most of Disney's decisions regarding what to recanonize. Which is to say, they haven't screwed anything up yet. But then again, the new Canon is only, what, 3 years old as of last April? They have plenty of time to screw things up. But even so, they look like they're being careful for the time being.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Solo4114 wrote:
The Tierfon Yellow Aces, specifically.

You know, when Disney bought the property and basically torched the EU, people FREAKED OUT (well, some people in my circles, anyway). And yes, they threw out the plot stuff because, obviously, they had to unless they were gonna set the story, like, 500 years in the future or something.

But I knew they'd be hanging on to stuff like the WEG source material. It simply made zero sense to toss out all of the world-building that had been done for them already. They obviously won't keep everything, but there's such a wealth of material just sitting there, waiting to be used that you had to expect they'd hang on to a lot of it.


Having the Ghorman Massacre recanonized from 17 BBY to 2 BBY was a particularly nice touch that I appreciated just because I could use it as part of my character's backstory in a classic era/Rebellion campaign.

And LOTS of people squee'd when we found that Thrawn was getting recanonized in Rebels. Myself among them, I'm not ashamed to admit.

Yeah, I'm happy so far with most of Disney's decisions regarding what to recanonize. Which is to say, they haven't screwed anything up yet. But then again, the new Canon is only, what, 3 years old as of last April? They have plenty of time to screw things up. But even so, they look like they're being careful for the time being.


They recanoninzed Ghorman? Where did that happen? I'm woefully behind on Rebels (only halfway through Season 2) and havent' read any of the new novels.

I think two things happened that really helped with Disney.

1. Disney keeps a much tighter rein on what gets made these days. They're a lot better at unified brand management than LFL ever was. LFL, it seemed, were happy to license stuff and keep very loose control over what content was being produced, without much regard for the quality of most of that content. Plus, the old "hierarchy of canon" meant that none of it really mattered anyway, since George could always overrule stuff by fiat, but didn't want to pay attention to what was being made in his sandbox. Disney keeps a closer watch on all of that, which means that quality is more consistent and continuity is maintained.

2. Disney seems to be tapping people who grew up with the films and revere them for the most part. It's not just folks who are casual fans, so the people actually creating stuff are much more invested in the process and the end product.
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
They recanoninzed Ghorman? Where did that happen? I'm woefully behind on Rebels (only halfway through Season 2) and havent' read any of the new novels.


I don't have a copy myself, I only saw pics of it on the internet, but the Rogue One Visual Guide has a number of articles and references to stuff that got canonized in Rogue One. There were a number of things, but the ones I remember off the top of my head are the Ghorman Massacre (which was also referenced in the Rebels episode where the Ghost had to escort Mon Mothma to Dantooine) and SpecForce Pathfinders. In fact, as I recall, most, if not all, of the Rogue One commando volunteers that Cassian scraped up for the Scarif mission were Pathfinders.

But yeah, finish watching Seasons 2 and 3, they're good. (I didn't find Season 3 to be quite as compelling as season 2, but it was good enough.) Me, I can't wait for Season 4 to see how the Rebels finally get their hands on X-wing fighters. In fact, Mon Mothma makes a reference to the X-wings in a throwaway line in that Supplemental Data I mentioned in my earlier post. Specifically, she just says that obtaining more fighter squadrons was a priority for the Rebellion and that "the details must remain confidential for now." Since we see Hera leading a squadron of X-wings in the Season 4 trailer, we might finally get to find out the canon explanation of how the Rebels got them from Incom Corporation.
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
They recanoninzed Ghorman? Where did that happen? I'm woefully behind on Rebels (only halfway through Season 2) and havent' read any of the new novels.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ghorman_Massacre

Solo4114 wrote:
1. Disney keeps a much tighter rein on what gets made these days. They're a lot better at unified brand management than LFL ever was. LFL, it seemed, were happy to license stuff and keep very loose control over what content was being produced, without much regard for the quality of most of that content. Plus, the old "hierarchy of canon" meant that none of it really mattered anyway, since George could always overrule stuff by fiat, but didn't want to pay attention to what was being made in his sandbox. Disney keeps a closer watch on all of that, which means that quality is more consistent and continuity is maintained.

These seem like oddly precise statements from someone who hasn't read any of the new novels. It is true that on paper there is no hierarchy with the new canon, so the TV shows, novels, comics, etc. are all equally canon with the films. I'm not sure this is totally true in practice, and when it is true it often leads to additional complications.

It seems that the new franchise is perhaps even worse at vagueness for when events occur on the timeline. The reason for the vagueness seems to be a service to the authors, to give them more wiggle room. However this policy in effect creates more problems than it solves or prevents because the vagueness leads to contradictions between works that wouldn't exist if all events were just given exact times. Nathan Butler of Star Wars Timeline Gold reads everything and points out every new contradiction as they pop up. It's maddening that they all could so easily be prevented.

Something else that seems worse in 'everything is canon' is their inability to acknowledge mistakes and do retcons when needed. For example, the artwork of a children's Rebels book taking place in 5 BBY featured Imperial II-class Star Destroyer. It's clearly a mistake and should have been an Imp-I. Do they retcon it? No. The artwork of a kiddie book has now canonized Imp-IIs existing in 5 BBY. The problem is, they don't appear again until stories taking place ABY. Thrawn, Tarkin and Vader only have Imp-Is, but Imp-IIs were in service 5 years before Rogue One? Absurd. Why can't they just say Oops and retcon it?

I emphatically disagree with everything else about the Disney franchise in your paragraph. I do not feel the Star Wars brand is any better managed than before. I do not feel there is any significant overall change in quality (for better or worse). And the story group has squandered their opportunity to not repeat the mistakes of the EU in non-film works contradicting the films. Splinter of the Mind's Eye is no longer canon, but what does the new Marvel Star Wars comic #1 do? They have Luke in another personal confrontation with Vader before TESB. So they just replace contradictory continuity with other contradictory continuity.

And tighter reign? There was widespread criticism of how commercialized SW was under Lucas, but Disney has gone well above and beyond merchandising Star Wars with products and into markets Lucas never even dreamed of. There is nearly "Star Wars" everything now. My wife's friend gave us light-up Star Wars pizza cutter! A college buddy of mine airmailed my family official electronic Star Wars lightsaber chopsticks from Japan for Christmas. Yes, lightsaber chopsticks! Tighter reign?! Ha!

Solo4114, everything you said is exactly what I had hoped would be the case for the new franchise and canon. I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but in reality, the new canon seems to be not too far off from "EU2".

Quote:
2. Disney seems to be tapping people who grew up with the films and revere them for the most part. It's not just folks who are casual fans, so the people actually creating stuff are much more invested in the process and the end product.

That could be true, but I can tell you that most of the 90s EU authors were huge fans of the SW Trilogy. Comparing the fanhood of authors seems quite nebulous, so these statement also seem like unsubstantiated wishful thinking. I do feel that the new movie makers are definitely big Star Wars fans, but who is a bigger fan that Lucas himself?
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, I've not consumed everything out there. This is just my sense of things. Thanks for the tip on the timeline gold thing, though. From skimming that, it seems interesting.

I guess my approach is to not be quite so concerned about what is and isn't canon, or whether there's some established hierarchy. I go with my gut on this. Video games probably aren't canon (especially when they have multiple endings or are multiplayer games like Battlefront). To the extent they're "canonized" at all, I'd rather it be that the games themselves exist within the universe (as simulations for training or entertainment), but that the outcomes they depict not be anything official. Kids books may be canon, but may not. (e.g., Coloring books? Probably not. Novellas? Maybe. Probably depends on the specific content.)

The quality of the stuff that I've seen has been pretty good, and at least from the reports of people I've talked to, the novels are better than what was coming out from the old EU.

When I say a "tighter rein," I'm not talking about all of the merchandising and licensing. Of course Disney is going to merchandise the hell out of the franchise. You don't pay over $4 billion for a franchise just to let it collect dust, after all. I don't actually care about all the merchandising, IF the merchandise itself is of decent quality for whatever it is. If you put the logo on it, it shouldn't be a piece of junk.

My main criticism (I can't speak for anyone else) of the latter years of Lucas' ownership was that on the one hand there seemed to be an attitude of "Just slap the logo on any old piece of crap. It'll sell," and on the other hand that George wanted to sometimes be way too involved in the end product.

Shortly after the sale, a story came out about LucasArts' "Project 1313" game that fell into development hell in no small part because of George's whims with respect to its development. There's also the objectively bad job that was done with the 2004 DVDs, much of which wasn't corrected with the 2012 blu-rays. I'm not talking artistic choices like whether to put a rock in front of R2 or have Han shoot first, simultaneously, or second. I'm talking things like flipping rear audio channels, crushing blacks in the image, and inconsistent color timing.

Disney, as a publicly traded company, seems a lot less likely to do things like that, and a lot less likely to alternate between totally hands-off and micromanaging.


As for the fandom, all I can say is that I've found Dave Filioni's work to be lightyears better than many of the old EU creators, Rogue One was thoroughly enjoyable, TFA seemed like a pretty good starting point (with some flaws in its storytelling and a bit too much reliance on JJ's "mystery box" nonsense), and otherwise that the feedback I've seen about the newer novels has been at worst that opportunities were missed here or there, and at best that the new books are quite good. Dunno about most of the rest.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how the destruction of Jedha City is handled in the novel. It's not just a line or a paragraph describing the incredible destructive capabilities of the Death Star weapon. Instead, the author drives the point home with an entire chapter devoted to the city's obliteration.

We see a 90+ year old woman, pilgrim and faithful, on Jedha, just before she is incinerated. Remember the young girl who is saved by Jyn in the middle of the firefight? We revisit the girl during her last moments. Not all Imperial troops are evacuated from the danger zone. Krennic gets a report that 97% of the Imperials in the blast radius have returned to their ships, but that's good enough for Krennic. He moves forward with the demonstration for Tarkin. We spend time with a squad of stormtroopers, not far from Jedha City, who haven't made their pick-up yet.

The end of the chapter is spent with Saw, in a scene similar to that, but somewhat different than, the scene that is in the film.
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The scene with the marooned stormtroopers was one I found especially compelling. The squad leader has to deal with her two squadmates fueding with each other for some petty unknown reason, while she's radioing up to the Star Destroyer making another request for a pickup. The guy on the other side basically says "Wait, you're still on the surface? Um... I'm really sorry" and the transmission ends. Then the squad leader sees the Death Star eclipse the sun and she thinks that the Rebels managed to create a planet killer. One of her squadmates scoffs and says "I don't think that's the Rebels." Then they're all killed in the blast, with their armor protecting them just long enough for their deaths to be painful.

That's just one of the things in the RO novelization to show how ruthless the Empire is to its own soldiers.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I love how the destruction of Jedha City is handled in the novel. It's not just a line or a paragraph describing the incredible destructive capabilities of the Death Star weapon. Instead, the author drives the point home with an entire chapter devoted to the city's obliteration.

We see a 90+ year old woman, pilgrim and faithful, on Jedha, just before she is incinerated. Remember the young girl who is saved by Jyn in the middle of the firefight? We revisit the girl during her last moments. Not all Imperial troops are evacuated from the danger zone. Krennic gets a report that 97% of the Imperials in the blast radius have returned to their ships, but that's good enough for Krennic. He moves forward with the demonstration for Tarkin. We spend time with a squad of stormtroopers, not far from Jedha City, who haven't made their pick-up yet.

The end of the chapter is spent with Saw, in a scene similar to that, but somewhat different than, the scene that is in the film.


I might have to get the novelization and give it a read..
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I might have to get the novelization and give it a read..
I just finished it. It's not great...but how many novelizations of films are great? But its not bad. And it does fill in a few details and add a little nuance to what some of the characters are thinking and feeling.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I might have to get the novelization and give it a read..
I just finished it. It's not great...but how many novelizations of films are great? But its not bad. And it does fill in a few details and add a little nuance to what some of the characters are thinking and feeling.


I think it's excellent. The audiobook, that is.

I'm loving it.
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I might have to get the novelization and give it a read..
I just finished it. It's not great...but how many novelizations of films are great? But its not bad. And it does fill in a few details and add a little nuance to what some of the characters are thinking and feeling.


I think it's excellent. The audiobook, that is.

I'm loving it.


Yeah, I liked the novelization alot. There are a few details that don't mesh exactly with the movie, like Galen's last words "It must be destroyed. Someone has to destroy it" in the novelization as opposed to "I have so much to tell you" to Jyn, which strikes me as alot more heartwrenching and tragic.

But as I said before, the Supplemental Data alone is a reason to buy the book. I'm very curious about the audiobook myself, so I just might get it.
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