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Rogue One (original spoilers thread)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, it would seem that hyper-nav data is one of the functions of the Bureau of Ships & Services. It makes sense; as a mostly neutral organization, they would be the perfect source for everyone to get the most accurate and current navigation data, without bias as to where they get their data from or who they give it to.

My theory remains that all ships have onboard recorders that track gravity and radiation levels during flight, which is then downloaded by BoSS and compiled to build a detailed route plot, and then uploaded in turn to ships receiving nav computer updates. They could even potentially offer discounts to spacers who share their nav data, or charge double for spacers who don't want to download their nav data (say, a route or trip they'd rather not let anyone know about).
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Are you really trying to argue that NASA does not have to take gravity into account?


When lifting off from a planet, sure. BUT all ships do.

We are talking about while in space plotting your hyperspace course out..


garhkal, are you making your comments because of something in RAW? Or, is there a scene in one of the movies or in a book that says calculations for hyperspace cannot be made in a gravity well?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question: How does Vader track the Tantive IV through hyperspace to Tatooine?
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Question: How does Vader track the Tantive IV through hyperspace to Tatooine?


Yeah, this isn't answered in either ANH or RO.

In fact, that's the one thing that disappointed me about Rogue One: that it didn't answer this question.

Then again, if Gareth Edwards had tried to answer this question, the movie wouldn't have ended with that awesome shot of the Tantive IV jumping to hyperspace.

In any case, Vader probably did what he did three years later at the Anoat system when Han Solo pulled that "peekaboo maneuver" on the Avenger in TESB:

Darth Vader wrote:
Calculate every possible destination along the last known trajectory.


The only reason it worked in RO/ANH and not in TESB is because they actually saw which way the Tantive IV jumped but they lost sight of the Millennium Falcon.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if the Rogue One novel mentions it. I have it. I just haven't listened to it yet.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Are you really trying to argue that NASA does not have to take gravity into account?

When lifting off from a planet, sure. BUT all ships do.

We are talking about while in space plotting your hyperspace course out..

Gravity is everywhere dude. And NASA would not be able to send probes through the solar system without taking gravity throughout the solar systems into effect. They do the math for all that on earth.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Also, it would seem that hyper-nav data is one of the functions of the Bureau of Ships & Services. It makes sense; as a mostly neutral organization, they would be the perfect source for everyone to get the most accurate and current navigation data, without bias as to where they get their data from or who they give it to.

My theory remains that all ships have onboard recorders that track gravity and radiation levels during flight, which is then downloaded by BoSS and compiled to build a detailed route plot, and then uploaded in turn to ships receiving nav computer updates. They could even potentially offer discounts to spacers who share their nav data, or charge double for spacers who don't want to download their nav data (say, a route or trip they'd rather not let anyone know about).

I've always thought this would be a function of BOSS too, but I've thought that giving data and receiving updates would be about an even trade. But maybe it should depend on how much data captains give from on their travels. My campaigns never get into the minutia of cost for these things.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, we all agree that a ship going to a world where Astrogation coordinates take four hours to generate should be a rare thing in the game, unless the PCs are Scouts at the edge of known space.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
And I see no reason why you couldn't adjust course while in hyperspace. Ships don't move in straight lines in hyperspace anyway. They follow paths which curve and turn at certain points. Due to gravity, nothing in the galaxy moves in straight lines. Even light itself bends in gravity.

There is at least one WEG reference that indicates otherwise. Specifically, the N-CRAB: experimental tech that allows ships to alter their hyperspace course without dropping back into realspace to recalculate a new route. The fact that the N-CRAB is equally as rare as a Lightsaber indicates that such a capability is almost unheard of in the WEG SWU. Food for thought.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:


garhkal, are you making your comments because of something in RAW? Or, is there a scene in one of the movies or in a book that says calculations for hyperspace cannot be made in a gravity well?


Off the top of my head i do remember reading it, but just can't remember whether it was one of the novels or WEG books right now..
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
And I see no reason why you couldn't adjust course while in hyperspace. Ships don't move in straight lines in hyperspace anyway. They follow paths which curve and turn at certain points. Due to gravity, nothing in the galaxy moves in straight lines. Even light itself bends in gravity.

There is at least one WEG reference that indicates otherwise. Specifically, the N-CRAB: experimental tech that allows ships to alter their hyperspace course without dropping back into realspace to recalculate a new route. The fact that the N-CRAB is equally as rare as a Lightsaber indicates that such a capability is almost unheard of in the WEG SWU. Food for thought.


Counterpoint: Out of 20 templates in the R&E, 2 of them have lightsabers as starting equipment.

So it might be rare, but not so rare that you can't start out with one.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Counterpoint: Out of 20 templates in the R&E, 2 of them have lightsabers as starting equipment.

So it might be rare, but not so rare that you can't start out with one.

Since when are character templates represent an accurate measurement of demographics in the SWU? Characters are supposed to be exceptional, to stand out from the masses. The actual description of the device specifies that it is a prototype being developed by Kuat Drive Yards. Its Cost / Availability is NAFS / 4, X. The same as a lightsaber.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Counterpoint: Out of 20 templates in the R&E, 2 of them have lightsabers as starting equipment.

So it might be rare, but not so rare that you can't start out with one.

Since when are character templates represent an accurate measurement of demographics in the SWU? Characters are supposed to be exceptional, to stand out from the masses. The actual description of the device specifies that it is a prototype being developed by Kuat Drive Yards. Its Cost / Availability is NAFS / 4, X. The same as a lightsaber.


And all I was pointing out was that something listed as 4,X NAFS is already on a couple of different templates, so that it is labeled such doesn't necessarily put it out of the range of starting characters. It doesn't mean that 10% of the galaxy has one, simply that someone... an exceptional player character, for example... might.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And all I'm pointing out is that going just by the Availability rating ignores key components of the device's backstory, as in, there's only one, it's an experimental prototype, and it's clunky and complicated. But don't mind me; obviously every player character needs one of these as starting equipment.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
And all I'm pointing out is that going just by the Availability rating ignores key components of the device's backstory, as in, there's only one, it's an experimental prototype, and it's clunky and complicated. But don't mind me; obviously every player character needs one of these as starting equipment.


And there you go with needless hyperbole. "It is not unreasonable that one might have it" is *obviously* the same as "Everyone will have one." Not everyone has a lightsaber, because it doesn't make sense for most of them. Heck, even one of the Templates for whom it might make sense (Young Jedi) doesn't start with one. Only two of the templates start with starships (Rookie New Republic Pilot and Smuggler), despite it likely making sense that the Brash Pilot might also.

I've not said everyone should have one, or even that most people should... simply that it's not entirely unreasonable that they might and, pointing to the two templates with ships, they might come with their own strings (either belonging to a military or being in debt to a crime lord), just as a lightsaber comes with strings (being assumed to be a Jedi, which is of varying lethality depending on the era).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes

The POINT you are insisting on missing is this:

1). Whill asserts that ships should be able to alter course while in hyperspace.

2). I point out that, per WEG's rules, doing so in the Classic Era is only possible through the use of experimental technology that is either exceedingly rare or unique.

3). You assert that, because other items in the universe are equally rare stats-wise (while ignoring the item's specific back story), they are therefore conceivably accessible to player characters.

4. I assert that that is not the point; even if a GM was dumb enough to just give this piece of equipment to starting PCs, that in no way makes said technology available to the galactic population as a whole.

There is a logical fallacy on this forum that I encounter with distressing regularity. For lack of a better term, I call it "Possibility = Probability = Commonality." Put simply, it asserts that, if something exists, it is likely that player characters will have access to it, therefore lots of other people will have access to it, as well.

The WHOLE reason I brought up the N-CRAB in the first place was to demonstrate that, per WEG, the ability to change to a new hyperspace route without dropping out of hyperspace to recalculate is exceedingly rare.

I don't particularly care if you hand out N-CRABs like Sabaac cards in your campaign; in the RAW, they barely exist at all.
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