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Sutehp
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 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:02 am Post subject: |
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What always struck me as a humongous sign of the Empire's power was just how much it was able to suppress knowledge of the Jedi and the Force across the galaxy in just 20 years. I'm sure that painting the Jedi as traitors to the Republic/Empire as depicted in RotS was a huge factor in that as well as a major propaganda coup for Palpatine. Remember how all those senators were cheering for Palpatine as he dismantled their democracy right in front of them? People across the galaxy were so traumatized by the Clone Wars that they wanted to forget the Jedi. Tarkin even says it outright in ANH when he says that Darth Vader is "all that's left of [the Jedi] religion." Word of God has hinted that even the Jedi-hunting Inquisitorius was actually disbanded by the time of ANH, so Vader (Tarkin doesn't know of Obi-Wan and Yoda) might really be the last reminder of the Jedi. Hell, after seeing Rogue One, now we know by this moment that Jedha (a reminder of the Jedi) was destroyed only a short time prior to Tarkin saying this! For all Tarkin knows, he's absolutely right!
Then again, Tarkin did have a slight tendency to ignore minor details that would come back to bite him in the @$$ hard. And as one of the Empire's top officers, he's also an Unreliable Narrator.
It rankles me a little bit that we have a "Church of the Force" throwaway line in Rogue One as I thought it was a good idea to keep religion unmentioned in the SWU so as to play up the "nondenominational" mysticism of the Force, but at least "Church of the Force" line was in the RO promotional materials and not in the movie itself. And while the Jedi could be described as a monastic order, they certainly haven't been seen doing anything even remotely close to what could be considered worship of the Force (or anything else, really). For that reason alone, the Jedi shouldn't be considered a religious organization. So yeah, if there is anything resembling a "Church of the Force" in the SWU, then the Jedi had nothing to do with it; it seems like something that would have been organized and/or built by non-Jedi civilians. These people might have copied the ideals of the Jedi, but I doubt the Jedi would have endorsed (or refused to endorse) such a thing. As with other things not within their purview, the Jedi would have remained politely neutral.
I can't help but think that most people that are inclined to make a pilgrimage to Jedha would be considered by the Empire to be skating on the thin edge of disloyalty and the people who actually made the pilgrimage would be considered borderline subversives. That might have given Tarkin an additional reason to destroy Jedha City: remove yet another reminder of the Jedi and the more just times during the Republic. Getting rid of the pilgrims is an additional bonus because it prevents them from joining the Rebellion, to say nothing of destroying Saw Guerra's band as well.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | What always struck me as a humongous sign of the Empire's power was just how much it was able to suppress knowledge of the Jedi and the Force across the galaxy in just 20 years. |
At the risk of inciting a prequel bash-fest, some of that has to do with the fact that some of the fluff that supports this idea were made before the exact timeline of the prequels were known. It was generally implied that the Empire had been around for longer (and the Jedi had been gone for longer) than 19 years. In the early 90s Timothy Zahn had been told the Empire had been around for about 35 years before ANH. Even in the mid-90s WEG seems to have been told 32-31 years, which was dating TPM correctly, but as you know the Empire did not end up starting until RotS. Lucas clearly didn't have an exact chronology of events worked out until he sat down to plot out the prequels in the mid-90s. (In the end, the prequels were plotted out around the life of Anakin Skywalker. The rise of the Empire coincided with the Rise of Darth Vader, the birth of the Skywalker twins, and the death of Padme, the Jedi Order and the Republic.)
| Sutehp wrote: | | I'm sure that painting the Jedi as traitors to the Republic/Empire as depicted in RotS was a huge factor in that as well as a major propaganda coup for Palpatine. Remember how all those senators were cheering for Palpatine as he dismantled their democracy right in front of them? People across the galaxy were so traumatized by the Clone Wars that they wanted to forget the Jedi. Tarkin even says it outright in ANH when he says that Darth Vader is "all that's left of [the Jedi] religion." Word of God has hinted that even the Jedi-hunting Inquisitorius was actually disbanded by the time of ANH, so Vader (Tarkin doesn't know of Obi-Wan and Yoda) might really be the last reminder of the Jedi. Hell, after seeing Rogue One, now we know by this moment that Jedha (a reminder of the Jedi) was destroyed only a short time prior to Tarkin saying this! For all Tarkin knows, he's absolutely right! |
Great saga insight.
| Sutehp wrote: | | Then again, Tarkin did have a slight tendency to ignore minor details that would come back to bite him in the @$$ hard. |
His overconfidence was a primary weakness, just like Maul, Dooku, Anakin Vader, and Palpatine.
| Sutehp wrote: | | And as one of the Empire's top officers, he's also an Unreliable Narrator. |
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Tarkin is not a narrator. He is a character in a 3rd person narrative not told from his point of view. My only guess is that you are referring to his line you mentioned above referring to the Jedi Order as a religion. I feel it was not unreliable for Tarkin to refer to the Jedi Order as a religion (even though that wouldn't even be my first choice of describing it)...
| Sutehp wrote: | | It rankles me a little bit that we have a "Church of the Force" throwaway line in Rogue One as I thought it was a good idea to keep religion unmentioned in the SWU so as to play up the "nondenominational" mysticism of the Force, but at least "Church of the Force" line was in the RO promotional materials and not in the movie itself. And while the Jedi could be described as a monastic order, they certainly haven't been seen doing anything even remotely close to what could be considered worship of the Force (or anything else, really). For that reason alone, the Jedi shouldn't be considered a religious organization. |
As someone who studies religion for fun, I vehemently disagree. Star Wars is heavily inspired by mythology, which is an aspect of religion. I strongly recommend everyone read the book The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell, or at least watch the televised version that is always shown during PBS donation drives times.
One of the main inspirations for the Jedi Order is Buddhism. You should read up on it. Most Buddhists do not worship anything (many even consider themselves atheists). Buddhism most certainly qualifies as a religion. I have Buddhist friends who might be offended to hear their belief-system invalidated by being told Buddhism is not a religion, but then again some of them might just say 'meh' to our categorizations. The Jedi don't have to worship The Force for their Order to a religion. And nothing states that the informal underground movement known as The Church of The Force actually worships The Force either. The Church of The Force seems to venerate the Jedi Order. The Jedi Order is a religion, the Sith Order is a religion, and The Church of the Force is a post-Jedi religion.
Look at the vast multitude of belief systems here on our one little planet. Star Wars takes place in a gigantic galaxy. The larger the sample size, the larger the amount of variety. Realistically, even with such an advanced galactic civilization, there would still be millions of different religions and denominations in the Star Wars galaxy. As some of you have pointed out, telekinesis is empirical evidence supporting that the Jedi have more than just a subjective belief in the Force, so "the" Church of The Force is likely only one of a multitude of religions surrounding the Force. Realistically, belief in the Force would be multi-denominational, not non-denominational. The Whills-related religion shown in RO and The Church of The Force movement shown in TFA are just the ones relevant to the films.
I can't see how The Church of The Force being referred to in the RO Visual Guide could possibly bother anyone, or how the Whills religions and The Church of The Force existing in the movies could in any way diminish their view of The Force. In my mind, The Force is still everything Obi-Wan and Yoda said it was in my childhood, and more than I can possibly imagine. Midi-chlorians were a detail only important to how Force potential is tested and how Anakin may have been simultaneously created by the Sith and still fulfil the Prophecy of the Chosen One (which by the way is sooo religious). If midi-chlorians and these other Force-related religions ruin the Force/Jedi for anyone, it would seem to me that speaks more to your small view of The Force, which means your view must never have lived up to Obi-Wan and Yoda's descriptions of it in the first place. Luminous beings are we. Let go of your conscious self and act on instinct.
| Sutehp wrote: | | So yeah, if there is anything resembling a "Church of the Force" in the SWU, then the Jedi had nothing to do with it; it seems like something that would have been organized and/or built by non-Jedi civilians. These people might have copied the ideals of the Jedi, but I doubt the Jedi would have endorsed (or refused to endorse) such a thing. As with other things not within their purview, the Jedi would have remained politely neutral. |
I don't disagree with any of that.
| Sutehp wrote: | | I can't help but think that most people that are inclined to make a pilgrimage to Jedha would be considered by the Empire to be skating on the thin edge of disloyalty and the people who actually made the pilgrimage would be considered borderline subversives. |
I quite agree. This really supports Jedha not being occupied by the Empire until a fairly short time before Rogue One, when they could finally step in and take over the Temple.
| Sutehp wrote: | | That might have given Tarkin an additional reason to destroy Jedha City: remove yet another reminder of the Jedi and the more just times during the Republic. Getting rid of the pilgrims is an additional bonus because it prevents them from joining the Rebellion, to say nothing of destroying Saw Guerra's band as well. |
Yep.
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Telsij
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Similar to what Whill has said earlier, I don't have any issue with the Church of the Force idea within the SW universe, as it makes perfect sense. Rather than take away from the mysticism IMHO, it enhances, not unlike various practices do in RL. Likewise, I don't think anyone would think Chirrut was a washout of any sort, and it jives better with the character that he would be be somehow outside of the Jedi Order's purview.
The Visual Guide also suggests that though the Church of the Force may have had similar practices historically, it was not aligned with, nor necessarily worshipful of Jedi. Chirrut's entry also specifically says that the Guardians of the Whills are less concerned with opposed forces and duality, and instead take a more holistic approach.
| Sutehp wrote: | | That might have given Tarkin an additional reason to destroy Jedha City: remove yet another reminder of the Jedi and the more just times during the Republic. Getting rid of the pilgrims is an additional bonus because it prevents them from joining the Rebellion, to say nothing of destroying Saw Guerra's band as well. |
This is exactly what I thought Tarkin was referring to throughout ANH. In the Imperial roundtable war-room, when he says that the last remnants of the Old Republic were snuffed out, he means the Senate specifically yes, but he's probably also including any Jedi/Force ties to the old government.
As when Tarkin later says to Vader, "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion," it's definitely, retroactively, meant to evoke Jedha. The Jedha event was specifically meant to reference this bit of ANH, just as it becomes Scarif that is referenced in ANH's opening crawl.
Last edited by Telsij on Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:39 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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Error
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think a "Church of the Force" sounds stupid, but I guess it might make sense for it to exist in-universe. I don't like it one bit because I see it as softening an intentionally gritty universe. Also because the Jedi Order and the Sith already constitute a church of the Force...or the Nightsisters of Dathomir do, or the Jay Shey or the Zeison Sha and on and on. Even the being Orphne inside the planet Aleen used some kind of "magic" (read: the Force) to become a pink sparkly mist. So all kinds of beings and organizations access and use the Force in their own ways, which certainly leaves room for a "Church of the Force" to exist, despite any personal misgivings I may have...which is unfortunate for me, but it's all good ;D
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Though I think the name "Church of the Force" sounds hokey, I'm not sure that the general idea is all that bad. It kind of makes sense for common folk of the universe to be attracted to the Jedi's ideals, even if they have no official affiliation to the order or ability to use the Force. It's not so far outlandish to imagine a religion springing off of it.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Though I think the name "Church of the Force" sounds hokey, I'm not sure that the general idea is all that bad. It kind of makes sense for common folk of the universe to be attracted to the Jedi's ideals, even if they have no official affiliation to the order or ability to use the Force. It's not so far outlandish to imagine a religion springing off of it. |
Yeah, all things considered, this sums up my feelings on the "Church of the Force." The name strikes me as cheesy but the concept of it does make sense in-universe.
EDIT: Cheshire, hurry up and make 21 more posts so you can get promoted to Grand Admiral! 
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | | I guess it might make sense for it to exist in-universe... So all kinds of beings and organizations access and use the Force in their own ways, which certainly leaves room for a "Church of the Force" to exist, despite any personal misgivings I may have...which is unfortunate for me, but it's all good ;D |
| Sutehp wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | Though I think the name "Church of the Force" sounds hokey, I'm not sure that the general idea is all that bad. It kind of makes sense for common folk of the universe to be attracted to the Jedi's ideals, even if they have no official affiliation to the order or ability to use the Force. It's not so far outlandish to imagine a religion springing off of it. |
Yeah, all things considered, this sums up my feelings on the "Church of the Force." The name strikes me as cheesy but the concept of it does make sense in-universe. |
I don't disagree with any of these things. The Church of the Force is a hokey and cheesy name, but IMO its mere existence (1) is not unrealistic or contradictory in this giant diverse galaxy we only see very small snippets of and (2) does not in any way ruin the mystery and majesty of the Force.
| Telsij wrote: | I don't have any issue with the Church of the Force idea within the SW universe, as it makes perfect sense. Rather than take away from the mysticism IMHO, it enhances, not unlike various practices do in RL. Likewise, I don't think anyone would think Chirrut was a washout of any sort, and it jives better with the character that he would be be somehow outside of the Jedi Order's purview.
The Visual Guide also suggests that though the Church of the Force may have had similar practices historically, it was not aligned with, nor necessarily worshipful of Jedi. Chirrut's entry also specifically says that the Guardians of the Whills are less concerned with opposed forces and duality, and instead take a more holistic approach.
| Sutehp wrote: | | That might have given Tarkin an additional reason to destroy Jedha City: remove yet another reminder of the Jedi and the more just times during the Republic. Getting rid of the pilgrims is an additional bonus because it prevents them from joining the Rebellion, to say nothing of destroying Saw Guerra's band as well. |
This is exactly what I thought Tarkin was referring to throughout ANH. In the Imperial roundtable war-room, when he says that the last remnants of the Old Republic were snuffed out, he means the Senate specifically yes, but he's probably also including any Jedi/Force ties to the old government.
As when Tarkin later says to Vader, "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion," it's definitely, retroactively, meant to evoke Jedha. The Jedha event was specifically meant to reference this bit of ANH, just as it becomes Scarif that is referenced in ANH's opening crawl. |
Great insights.
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Last edited by Whill on Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Error
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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The more I consider the ultimate vulnerability of all the major characters (they all die, except Tarkin and Vader), the more I like the film. It has an ending which leads directly into ANH. Does anyone know...are there characters other than Tarkin and Vader in R1 who are in the Death Star I's conference scenes in ANH? Just curious, I know Admiral Yularen from TCW is there.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | | The more I consider the ultimate vulnerability of all the major characters (they all die, except Tarkin and Vader), the more I like the film. It has an ending which leads directly into ANH. Does anyone know...are there characters other than Tarkin and Vader in R1 who are in the Death Star I's conference scenes in ANH? |
General Hurst Romodi
| Whill wrote: | Here is a list of the characters in Rogue One that also appear in other films (with episode #):
Dr. Cornelius Evazan (4)
Ponda Baba (4)
Mon Mothma (3, 6)
General Jan Dodonna (4)
Viceroy Bail Organa (2, 3)
R2-D2 (all)
C-3PO (all)
Colonel Anj Zavor (4)
Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin (3, 4)
General Hurst Romodi (4)
Lord Darth Vader (1-6)
Garven Dreis/Red Leader (4)
Jon Vander/Gold Leader (4)
Captain Raymus Antilles (3, 4)
Senator Princess Leia Organa (3-7)
Also, Emperor Sheev Palpatine was mentioned, referred to as "The Emperor" (as in ANH). Master Obi-Wan Kenobi was indirectly referred to as Bail's "Jedi friend." |
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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So my 1st grade son tells me that he had a long 30 minute recess today at school and he decided he wanted to play "Rogue One". So he spread the word, including among older grade kids. When he a had a group of interested kids, he had each kid privately describe a battle scene from the movie to prove that they had seen the movie. If they couldn't then they couldn't play Rogue One because they would learn spoilers!
8)
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | So my 1st grade son tells me that he had a long 30 minute recess today at school and he decided he wanted to play "Rogue One". So he spread the word, including among older grade kids. When he a had a group of interested kids, he had each kid privately describe a battle scene from the movie to prove that they had seen the movie. If they couldn't then they couldn't play Rogue One because they would learn spoilers!
8) |
You have taught your Padawan well.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Nice kid!!
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garhkal
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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OMG, that is just too funny! The thing about getting past Starkiller Base's shield is true, though. That was uncanny.
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Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them. |
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Whill
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