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Two-weapon Fighting
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
As for a house rule for how to handle two-weapon fighting, I would want the rule to require a cost to the character using it (a CP cost, for example). Once paid, Id want the character to be able to make two attacks more effectively than a character using one weapon.


In my game, I have a separate skill for dual wield (blasters)
and dual wield (melee).

The idea is that when dual wielding, the character must use the lower skill.

example:
Guy has the skills:
Blaster 4D
Dual wield Blaster (3D)

when shooting normally he gets 4 dice.
But when dual wielding he gets 3 dice.

The advantage is getting two shots off as a single action.

If he builds up dual wield blasters to 7D, he is still restricted by his regular blaster skill of 4D, which is his basic understanding of shooting principles with that class of weapon.

This system takes into account the extra training required to dual wield, and explains why it is fairly rare. Most people won't put in the extra effort and time (CP) forthe ability to get off twice the shots.

In melee I give players the extra option to add dice to melee parry rather than to attack twice.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Dredwulf is back! Very Happy

I think garhkal's idea works. I always have trouble deciding how much of a penalty to give certain actions. -1 may be too small... maybe -2?

Dredwulf's idea is also slick. Very costly, but potentially twice as lethal.

As for Whill's comment, I tend to agree that its easy for... ahem... "some of us"... ahem.... to get crunchy and "realistic." After posting, I had considered the -1D penalty as being an effectively "scaling" penalty in that it's significance diminishes as skill improves. On the surface, it feels overly simple as a solution, though in truth, it eloquntly and adequately addresses the issue.

In the films, I can think of three characters who I would consider dual wielders: Darth Maul, Jango Fett and General Grievous. Disregarding the latter for obvious reasons, I feel that the other two characters are generally portrayed as highly proficient combatants, and their second weapon seems to always represent an advantage. And I also feel that the use of the more exotic/second weapon is meant to communicate a higher threat level for the audience's sake.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how I feel about this one way or the other. The only time I've ever put a rule for dual-wielding weapons was in my Dueling Sabers system, and even then, it was primarily a bait-and-switch; the only advantage the character accrued was a counter-MAP effect of 1D if the character bought the skill at normal price.

Which is basically the same price they would've paid to increase their Lightsaber skill by 1D, which would've had the same effect...

Personally, I'm inclined to take Cheshire's suggestion until something more interesting comes along.
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Error
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
How's about
"Two weapon fighting" - 15cp cost.
This merit (special ability??) allows characters who purchase it from then on, to fight in either melee, or distance (pick blaster, firearms, missile weapons etc per Purchase of the ability) with one weapon in each hand. If they split targets, they only take a -1 pip Multiple action penalty instead of the normal -1d, and get to roll for BOTH attacks during the same action phase. If either hit, roll damage as normal vs that person.
If putting both attacks on the same target, the MAP is the same -1 pip, but if EITHER attack roll hits, the damage is +1d over the weapon's damage.

Now we're getting perilously close to FEATS! lol

Dredwolf, you describing it costing 4D for your described character to shoot one pistol and then 3D to fire twice is exactly what the rules describe.

The rules pretty clearly resolve this situation as written (P. 78 in 2E R&E). They state that actions by a particular character beyond the first in a round add a -1D penalty to each roll. So let's pretend you have a BLASTER SKILL of 6D. If you have a blaster pistol in each hand and want to fire both in the SAME ROUND, you'd roll your 5D to hit with your "on" hand first. Then you'd roll for your other hand, and assuming you are AMBIDEXTROUS, that would also be 5D. Were you not ambidextrous, it would be even lower at 4D.

If you hit with one shot, roll damage for it. If you hit with the other shot, roll the damage for that one too.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
garhkal wrote:
How's about
"Two weapon fighting" - 15cp cost.
This merit (special ability??) allows characters who purchase it from then on, to fight in either melee, or distance (pick blaster, firearms, missile weapons etc per Purchase of the ability) with one weapon in each hand. If they split targets, they only take a -1 pip Multiple action penalty instead of the normal -1d, and get to roll for BOTH attacks during the same action phase. If either hit, roll damage as normal vs that person.
If putting both attacks on the same target, the MAP is the same -1 pip, but if EITHER attack roll hits, the damage is +1d over the weapon's damage.

Now we're getting perilously close to FEATS! lol.


It kinda seems that way..
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


Dredwolf, you describing it costing 4D for your described character to shoot one pistol and then 3D to fire twice is exactly what the rules describe.


Actually, Errer, that's just a coincidence involving that particular example.

In my version of dual wielding, it would be possible to have a character with a blaster skill of 8D and a dual blaster skill of 3D. (just another random example.)

Which would mean he rolls 8D when firing normally. But if he wants to double-fist it to get that extra shot every action, he's using 3D.

In essence a character who wants to be a really effective dual-blaster shooter has to keep improving the dual blaster skill to match his overall blaster skill...if he wants to fire both with the same skill level as just one.

Using the lesser of the two skills keeps away the bizarre result of having a character who has dual blasters skill at 8D and just regular blasters at something lesser.

I can picture a guy training his butt off to get just as good with two pistols as one, but...

I find it hard to picture a character who shoots better with one in each hand than just one on its own.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is also important to note that penalties for multiple actions become superfluous after a while. Say your PC has 11D+1 blaster. He wants to fire twice, so he rolls 10D+1 for each shot. What I mean is, that character is still rolling in the heroic range even with the penalty. That's a huge difference from a PC with a blaster skill of 3D+2 (let's say) who wants to fire two blasters in a round.

Another important thing to note is that firing two blasters in one round is a lot different than a Jedi with two lightsabers who also has Lightsaber Combat up. That character may receive a penalty somewhere, but the sheer size of the Lightsaber Combat bonus sort of negates any penalties. Of course, this is for a Jedi who has progressed beyond a learner and has 2-3D in all three Force skills.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
It is also important to note that penalties for multiple actions become superfluous after a while. Say your PC has 11D+1 blaster. He wants to fire twice, so he rolls 10D+1 for each shot. What I mean is, that character is still rolling in the heroic range even with the penalty. That's a huge difference from a PC with a blaster skill of 3D+2 (let's say) who wants to fire two blasters in a round..


True, when someone gets into the 9d and higher region, MAPS are not as harmful when they keep # of actions down..
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Error wrote:
It is also important to note that penalties for multiple actions become superfluous after a while. Say your PC has 11D+1 blaster. He wants to fire twice, so he rolls 10D+1 for each shot. What I mean is, that character is still rolling in the heroic range even with the penalty. That's a huge difference from a PC with a blaster skill of 3D+2 (let's say) who wants to fire two blasters in a round..


True, when someone gets into the 9d and higher region, MAPS are not as harmful when they keep # of actions down..

As an aside: What is MAP's? Multiple action penalties? I am tres ignorante about the lingo bruhs.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Error wrote:
It is also important to note that penalties for multiple actions become superfluous after a while. Say your PC has 11D+1 blaster. He wants to fire twice, so he rolls 10D+1 for each shot. What I mean is, that character is still rolling in the heroic range even with the penalty. That's a huge difference from a PC with a blaster skill of 3D+2 (let's say) who wants to fire two blasters in a round..


True, when someone gets into the 9d and higher region, MAPS are not as harmful when they keep # of actions down..

As an aside: What is MAP's? Multiple action penalties? I am tres ignorante about the lingo bruhs.


Got it in one.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a list of common acronyms and terms used on the Pit.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
It is also important to note that penalties for multiple actions become superfluous after a while. Say your PC has 11D+1 blaster. He wants to fire twice, so he rolls 10D+1 for each shot. What I mean is, that character is still rolling in the heroic range even with the penalty. That's a huge difference from a PC with a blaster skill of 3D+2 (let's say) who wants to fire two blasters in a round.



hmm.

Not sure what you're getting at...

Is it that dual wielding blasters becomes less relevant at high skill dice?

If so, consider:

An 11D+1 Blaster skill means that a guy could fire twice at 10D+1...sure.

But not two shots at the exact same time, which might be an important distinction in certain situations.

Also...a character with 11D+1 in Blaster skill might decide he wants to fire 8 times in a round*;

He'd be rolling 4D+1 for each shot.

If he was dual-wielding blasters...he'd be firing both blasters every action for a total of 16 shots on target.


* assuming that he had a blaster capable of that rate of fire.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone in my party wants to shoot two blasters at the exact same moment, they should alert the GM so the GM can resolve initiative and whatnot.

I would let a PC fire two blasters at the exact same time for the same -1D penalty. Once again, each would have a separate roll, and if one or both were to hit, damage would be rolled both times. This is because two blaster bolt hits equal two blaster bolt hits.

If a guy with 11D+1 blasters wants to build a belt that holds six extra blasters and wants to spend actions drawing them, I'd be inclined to let him, particularly with his rolls being 4D+1... 8)

As for my example, what I mean is that for characters that have been around for a long time, -1D isn't really a huge penalty in some situations. For a character who has only just been created and whose stats are low, however, it's a huge decision to do two actions at once because the -1D penalty is huge.

But of course, this is the "House Rules" section! If what you're using makes the most sense to you, use it Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I overlooked a reasonable source of official information on this... d6 Fantasy, where the two-weapon trope is well-established. d6 Fantasy opts for a very simple rule, on page 70:

Quote:
Multiple Weapons
Weapons that characters can use with one hand and in either
hand, such as daggers, may be employed at the same time in the
same round. The character incurs a multi-action penalty.


Have two weapons? Take a MAP if you want to use both. The same is in d6 space.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:

As an aside: What is MAP's? Multiple action penalties? I am tres ignorante about the lingo bruhs.


DING, we have a winner!
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