The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Scale and Lightsaber Combat
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Official Rules -> Scale and Lightsaber Combat Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't one of the points of scale difference to incorporate how difficult it is to hit a Character scale target with Starfighter scale weapons? Not that it is impossible to do, but that it is very difficult?

The scale difference is 6D. The Standard TIE/In pilot has 4D Starship Gunnery, and 2D Fire Control (p. 250, R&E), meaning the Standard TIE/In pilot has no dice to hit a character scale target. The Standard Rebel Pilot, shooting at a character scale target with his proton torpedos, has a 2. Not 2D, just a 2.

My point is, the system already takes into account that this is a difficult shot to make. Most NPCs can't make the shot. The people firing on the Death Star exhaust port? Squadron leaders and a protagonist.

So, we get back to Bob and Amy. Bob is a cut above the standard TIE/In pilot. Amy has protagonist stats. If Bob were just trying to shoot Amy, it would be at 2D, since the scale would've eaten the rest of his skill and equipment dice. If Amy were trying to cut open the TIE/In, it's 2D hull would be 8D... practically impossible for anything but an experienced Jedi with a lightsaber. Scale takes these things into account.
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. The point of the dice is to represent the probability of something occurring. Want to fire your fighter's laser cannon at something too small for its Fire Control system to actually detect? That's a -6D penalty. Considering the RAW recommends a -4D penalty for Perception rolls in total darkness, -6D is no small disadvantage.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14022
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
A TIE is far larger than 3x the size of a character. 6m is just the widest dimension of the ship. And, the fire control system is designed specifocallyto engage targets of a certain type.


Then as i have asked, why do we see many instances in the legacy novels AND twice in TFA instances of fighters doing straffing runs on troops???

Naaman wrote:
Imagine using a sniper rifle to try and shoot a bumble bee out of the air, or a sling shot to kill a bug, etc. How about a throwing knife to kill a spider in its web? Possible, but unlikely... on the other hand, using a net to catch a butterfly is pretty easy. The scale of the attacker doesn't change, but when using the right "weapon" such as a fly swatter as opposed to a shotgun, you get results that are repeatable.


That comparison is way off the mark as a fly/bee is at least more than 1/10th the size of a human.. Or a kinfe to a spider..

MrNexx wrote:
Isn't one of the points of scale difference to incorporate how difficult it is to hit a Character scale target with Starfighter scale weapons? Not that it is impossible to do, but that it is very difficult?

The scale difference is 6D. The Standard TIE/In pilot has 4D Starship Gunnery, and 2D Fire Control (p. 250, R&E), meaning the Standard TIE/In pilot has no dice to hit a character scale target.\


Exactamundo.. Heck in one of the game modules i had, the party DID get a strafe run by 2 ties.. Adding the tie pilots (after table tier included) 8d+2 to the 2d fire control, minusing the scale, that gave them 4d+2 to hit people.. Just about even=stevens with many non-combat pcs dodge rolls....
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may want to rethink that comparison, g. A fly or bee 1/10th the size of a human would be the size of a cat or small dog.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
yomama360
Cadet
Cadet


Joined: 26 Oct 2016
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which begs the question "could I hit a cat with a knife?"

Hold on, I'll be right back...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10286
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I sure do remember that scene. Though, I am conflicted on whether I consider it "valid." There are a lot of things about the preestablished Star Wars lore that Ep 7 has turned on its head. A completely untrained teenage girl mind tricking someone... and then beating a trained Force sensitive in a lightsaber fight...

WEG established that the Skywalkers are exceptions to the rules regarding the Force. The game only needed to simulate non-Skywalker characters to using the Force on and fighting each other. If Rey is a Skywalker as suspected, then what WEG established still holds.

CRMcNeill wrote:
But if you are going to insist on realism in Star Wars, there will be blast and shrapnel effects from the bolts hitting the ground near the character.

I concur. Just like when the two TIE Fighters were strafing Rey and Finn on Jakku. There weren't any direct hits, but there was a near miss that sent them flying and knocked them down.

CRMcNeill wrote:
And making an absolute prohibition on hitting a target that small also eliminates the possibility of a lucky hit. Better to just apply the 6D modifier to either roll and let the dice decide.

I concur. Only very good or lucky starship gunners will be able to overcome the scale modifier and make those shots. I assume that Poe would be very good pilot/gunner.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14022
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
You may want to rethink that comparison, g. A fly or bee 1/10th the size of a human would be the size of a cat or small dog.


Hence why i phrased it 'at least more than'//
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
You may want to rethink that comparison, g. A fly or bee 1/10th the size of a human would be the size of a cat or small dog.


Hence why i phrased it 'at least more than'//

If by which you mean it is "smaller than 1/10", it should be phrased "less than 1/10". "Atleast more than" generally means "larger than."
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yomama360 wrote:
Which begs the question "could I hit a cat with a knife?"

Hold on, I'll be right back...

Okay, that's some funny $h!t.

Laughing
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, digging it up while it's still relatively fresh. Razz Goes against my typical posting standards, but, let's just say it's for fun, I guess. Very Happy

So, I went back and watched Ep. 7. After viewing a few scenes, I feel that Ep. 7 in particular does more to support my position on this issue than to refute it.

First, looking at the scene wherein Po shoots the storm troopers. This scene actually refutes the idea that deflecting a starfighter blast would be any more challenging or dangerous than deflecting a blaster pistol: We see several storm troopers attempting to take Han, Chewie AND Finn into custody and then Po guns them down with such precision that none of our heroes even flinch. There is less "fall out" from the X-wing's blast than from Chewie's bowcaster. And the laser bolts themselves are needle thin, as well. Not even so much as a "blast wave" or any collateral damage is depicted.

In general, I feel that this scene should be totally disregarded as even remotely relevant to this discussion (there are other scenes, like Jabba's skiff scene which I "ignore" for all intents and purposes when it comes to what can/cannot or should/should not happen in Star Wars, just to name one; the X-wing gunning down stromies now fits in the same category for me).

Next, in the scene where Rei and Finn acquire the Millenium Falcon, Finn advises Rei to "stay low" because it "confuses" their targeting systems, indicating that the TIE fighters' fire control system is not designed to engage targets that are close to the ground (as would the Jedi in the original question be). This tactic was effective for a starfighter scale target (negating or mitigating enemy fire control), so, it naturally follows that a character scale target would prove even more difficult (adding the scale modifier in addition to cancelling or reducing fire control).

This is confirmed in the scene immediately prior to the acquisition of the Falcon wherein Rei and Finn are being shot at (and not really putting any effort into "dodging") but the TIEs keep missing.

Also, since it seems to not be coming across clearly, let me try one more time:

My position is NOT that it is "impossible" to hit a different scale target. Only that the scale modifier is NOT sufficient to simulate the likelihood/difficulty of achieving such a hit with any reasonable expectation of success.

The relative size/mass and scale of the shooter/platform to the target are also irrelevant to my point. My point is simply that the scale of the weapon (and its respective fire control system) is the only factor that needs to be considered when determining whether to allow the fire control system to be added to the attack roll.

A stinger missile is a good example: it is a starfighter scale weapon designed to be fired by a character scale shooter at a starfighter scale target. A minigun is another example: it is a character scale weapon designed to be fired from a walker scale vehicle for the purpose of engaging personnel.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. Time to start catching up...

Naaman wrote:
There is less "fall out" from the X-wing's blast than from Chewie's bowcaster. And the laser bolts themselves are needle thin, as well. Not even so much as a "blast wave" or any collateral damage is depicted.

My feeling from working on blast radius rules was that energy weapons had somewhat less of a blast effect because of being a linear discharge. Whereas a grenade or missile warhead can be designed specifically to have a blast effect, the blast effects of an energy beam are going to be subject to a lot more random chance.

Quote:
This tactic was effective for a starfighter scale target (negating or mitigating enemy fire control), so, it naturally follows that a character scale target would prove even more difficult (adding the scale modifier in addition to cancelling or reducing fire control).

And there is a place for a rule to that effect, say, allowing proximity to the ground to count as partial or full cover, which would be represented by a dice penalty appended to the scale modifier.

I proposed something similar elsewhere for allowing characters who are kneeling / crouched or prone / crawling to count as partially covered. I've also discussed low-altitude flight rules that make it harder to target low-flying aerospace craft due to their close proximity to obstacles (with the countervailing cost of an increase in Piloting Difficulty; the greater the cover advantage, the higher the Difficulty modifier).

For me, it's important to remember that we aren't playing in a fully realistic universe. I personally am okay with the Scale Modifier system's penalties; it takes an above average starfighter pilot (by WEG's standards) to have a chance of overcoming the Starfighter vs. Character Scale Modifier and score a hit on a Character-Scale target. If anything, if the shooter can aim at something near his target (like the ground, or a speeder or something), I'd be inclined to give an off-setting bonus to represent the increased chance of catching a character-scale target with shrapnel or super-heated gases or a shockwave or something.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew! I feel like someone finally understood what I was getting at. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Whew! I feel like someone finally understood what I was getting at. Smile

No, I got your point a while back, I just disagree. I think adding that layer of crunch to Fire Control dice is excessive. AFAIAC, a weapon's Fire Control rating is not a direct representation of the effectiveness of its targeting system, but rather a consolidated representation of a variety of different factors that affect weapon accuracy.

If you feel the need to set real-world based parameter limits on what Fire Control dice can and can't be used for, feel free, but I will not be following suit, as I am satisfied with the penalties imposed by the Scale System.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes of course. Ill do it my way, you do it yours. Though all the remarks about the relative size of the attacker to the target (TIE being 6m vs Human being 2m, a fly being a few mm, and a cat being a more appropriate comparison, etc) indicated to me that my primary point was being missed.

The OP asked how it might work and I gave my take. I don't know if I'd say my point of view is inspired by "realism" so much as its inspired by a desire to keep things in the contexts where they seem to "belong" and a scenario as described in the OP is one that I feel warrents the expeniture of a force point (hence, the heavy penalties).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Official Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0