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Scale and Lightsaber Combat
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yomama360
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
... I find it rediculous that a TIE fighter should even consider shooting at a lone person.
What about a TIE fighter strafing infantry on a battlefield?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is something I alluded to in my first post: the TIE would need at a minimum air-to-ground weaponry, or a character scale weapon. It has neither of those.

If you want a real world example, consider the differences between a C-130 gunship or an A-10 versus an F-15 Eagle or F-22 Raptor, etc.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Wikipedia article on Strafing Attacks...

I find it entirely plausible that a TIE's sensors are capable of identifying a human-sized target on the ground while in flight. In such a scenario, a TIE Pilot's options are A) land and pursue target on foot with a blaster pistol (or whatever else he happened to be carrying in the cockpit with him, never mind the fact that TIEs aren't technically capable of landing anywhere other than a hangar rack at their base), or B) stay in his 8D Character Scale ship and make repeated strafing runs with his 11D Character-Scale laser cannon against a target that (so far as he knows) can't effectively return fire until said target is either killed or indicates he wishes to surrender.

There are multiple videos on line from the Afghanistan and Iraq wars of enemy combatants being engaged and killed with weaponry better suited to taking out armored vehicles or aircraft. If this is reality, I fail to see why it should be impossible in science fiction.

On top of that, it just SOUNDS cool. That could be a singularly awesome gaming moment for a Jedi PC, shooting down a TIE by parrying its own lasers back at it.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. I perfectly understand what strafing is. The point is that the weapons used for strafing are intended for strafing. And, if they are improvised, then there are mechanical limitations to what they can do. For example, if the weapons are twin linked on the wings of the craft, then there will be a point at which the target can simply stand between the blasts without ever getting hit.

For example, in an ASV, there is a .50 cal and a Mk19 twin linked on a turret. Both of those weapons can be fired together at the same target, but only as long as the target is between a certain minimum and maximum range. Any closer, and the rounds will pass by on either side of the target. Any farther, and they will crisscross and travel divergent paths away from the target. And that's a "speeder" or, possibly "walker" scale vehicle.

Likewise, if we are talking about a single weapon, it has limits on what it's mechanical components can do. Starfighter combat takes place at "starfighter distances." The fire control systems would be optimized for this fact. Whereas a fire control system intended for anti-personnel would be optimized for that role. Also, a single weapon has a very, very narrow area of effect, so it takes the pilot doing some pretty fancy flying and shooting to hit a person with a single weapon that was designed for shooting starfighters.

In any case, the rules I suggested do perfectly allow for a Jedi to knock that TIE out of the sky, and, IMO give the Jedi all the advantages, provided he doesn't get hit.

We are, after all, talking about a single individual person being targeted by a TIE fighter, not a platoon of infantry out in the open.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did no one see Poe Dameron bullseying Storm Troopers in his X-Wing?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sure do remember that scene. Though, I am conflicted on whether I consider it "valid." There are a lot of things about the preestablished Star Wars lore that Ep 7 has turned on its head. A completely untrained teenage girl mind tricking someone... and then beating a trained Force sensitive in a lightsaber fight... "waiting" in hyperspace.... exiting hyperspace within the atmosphere of a planet.... a planet "consuming " the entirety of the star it orbits, and then shooting "lasers" (insert Dr Evil meme here) across the galaxy at planets in completely different systems...

If Po turns out to be force sensitive, Ill buy it... but with all the speculation about Fin being force sensitive and then you've got Rei and Ben and Snoke and Luke and Leia... it starts to cheapen the idea of force sensitivity (and by extension the idea of Jedi in general) in a post Jedi--purge galaxy.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or, if you look at it in game terms, his skill was more than enough to offset the scale penalty against him.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
The issue I have is that I find it rediculous that a TIE fighter should even consider shooting at a lone person. Short of making it outright impossible (which I'm against), its not something I would want to see happening in my games, so I would want it to be difficult enough that people aren't generally willing to bother.


You did see force awakens with the xwing strafing the imperials at Jandor didn't you? Same thing happens in several of the novels (now legends)... And what's the difference between a tie fighter that's 6 meters size, shooting people, and an AT-AT which is 26 meters big doing the same, which CANON has showed is possible and very accurate (HOTH!!!)..?

Naaman wrote:
I suppose it comees down to GM interpretation. A fire control syster has mechanical and/or electronic components. Those components do various things depending on the intended use of the weapon. A starfighter scale weapon is designed to track targets thousands of times more massive than a person that move at tremendous speeds. 2 meters, after all, is "impossible; even for a computer."


Being many ships have fire control and are barely three times the size of a character, how do you see fire control systems not being able to targe something 2 meters in size??
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A TIE is far larger than 3x the size of a character. 6m is just the widest dimension of the ship. And, the fire control system is designed specifocallyto engage targets of a certain type.

Imagine using a sniper rifle to try and shoot a bumble bee out of the air, or a sling shot to kill a bug, etc. How about a throwing knife to kill a spider in its web? Possible, but unlikely... on the other hand, using a net to catch a butterfly is pretty easy. The scale of the attacker doesn't change, but when using the right "weapon" such as a fly swatter as opposed to a shotgun, you get results that are repeatable.

As I said, Ill allow the shot, but don't expect in my game to hit unless you uave massive skill (as RR suggested), you spend a force point or you explode your wild die seven or eight times, etc...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, garhkal, did you not catch my ANH reference? The only one who could hit the two meter target was the force sensitive when he used the concentration power AND spent a force point (according to WEG's interpretation, anyway).
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yomama360
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
if the weapons are twin linked on the wings of the craft, then there will be a point at which the target can simply stand between the blasts without ever getting hit.
Not sure any military manual would recommend that tactic.

garhkal wrote:
how do you see fire control systems not being able to targe something 2 meters in size??
2 meters? That's no bigger than a womp rat. Surely even a teenager could bulls eye that with a T-16.

I wonder if the pilot could just flip a switch to "anti-personnel" mode on his targeting system or something.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't matrer what a military manual would recomend. It matters whether a pilot has a reasonable chance of hitting a lone individual with a spacecraft sized weapon and whether said individual could repel that blaster fire with a lightsaber.

I already addressed Luke Skywalker bullseye-ing womprants and frankly, that argument makes my point, rather than refuting it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Yes. I perfectly understand what strafing is. The point is that the weapons used for strafing are intended for strafing. And, if they are improvised, then there are mechanical limitations to what they can do. For example, if the weapons are twin linked on the wings of the craft, then there will be a point at which the target can simply stand between the blasts without ever getting hit.

But if you are going to insist on realism in Star Wars, there will be blast and shrapnel effects from the bolts hitting the ground near the character. If you are going to insist that a character can't get hit because realism, you had better incorporate the realistic reasons why a character could still take damage.

Quote:
In any case, the rules I suggested do perfectly allow for a Jedi to knock that TIE out of the sky, and, IMO give the Jedi all the advantages, provided he doesn't get hit.

Which is why I suggested adding the scale modifier to the Jedi's parry Difficulty, to represent the greater power / larger diameter / whatever of a Starfighter scale blaster bolt relative to a Character Scale one. A +6D Difficulty modifier means that parrying a SF Scale laser is possible, just highly improbable, as in, something that would take a FP to pull off.

Quote:
We are, after all, talking about a single individual person being targeted by a TIE fighter, not a platoon of infantry out in the open.

So one person standing in the middle of a field has nothing to fear from a strafing Starfighter? Please tell me you see how ridiculous that sounds.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
It doesn't matrer what a military manual would recomend. It matters whether a pilot has a reasonable chance of hitting a lone individual with a spacecraft sized weapon and whether said individual could repel that blaster fire with a lightsaber.

I already addressed Luke Skywalker bullseye-ing womprants and frankly, that argument makes my point, rather than refuting it.

And making an absolute prohibition on hitting a target that small also eliminates the possibility of a lucky hit. Better to just apply the 6D modifier to either roll and let the dice decide.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, a TIE fighter should be able to hover. Which would obviate the need for much precision.
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