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Ammo and the games
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The Brain
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thedemonapostle wrote:
tactically speaking, with actual real world experience, a 30 round magazine doesn't last as long as everyone thinks it does. not by a long shot

Yet mathematically speaking, all other things being equal, a 100-shot power pack will last 3.33 times longer than a 30-round box magazine. While I understand some people are more comfortable with tying blaster function closely to their personal experience, I disagree. There is not a single instance in the films of a shooter running out of ammunition mid-battle, and blasters having much larger ammunition capacity compared to modern firearms easily explains this. Efficiency of ammunition as yet another example of technological advancement compared to the modern world is an easy solution.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
In my game, when shooting blaster weapons, a '1' on the wild die prompts an ammo check.

Each weapon has a die value for ammo capacity. D4 to D12.
Quote:
Those who might not want to contaminate their D6 game with strange other shapes could likely work out something with D6s if they really wanted to do something like this.

I like this, although the idea of using non-D6 dice in a specifically D6 game is something I would prefer to avoid.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
[Which movies you on about.? There are plenty of films where ammo HAS been a concern, such as all the Die hards, the Expendables, Taken 1-3. Heck even Black hawk down they had issues with ammo...
It seems only the older 80s-early 90s action movies, or the John Woo types, don't worry about ammo..

Pretty sure he is on about the Star Wars movies. Where no one ever reloads or runs out of ammunition (or even appears to worry about it). And since the films are the foundation for this entire gaming universe, that's worth taking into consideration.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:39 am    Post subject: Re: Ammo and the games Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
In my game, when shooting blaster weapons, a '1' on the wild die prompts an ammo check...

Each weapon has a die value for ammo capacity. D4 to D12.

...When the wild die prompts an ammo check, the player rolls the die for ammo capacity. A '1' on this roll indicates a drained power pack.

ie 1D4 has a 1 in 4 chance of running out.
a D8 has a 1 in 8 chance of running out etc...

The other downside is that highly trained troops who might normally try to keep track of their ammo religiously will have no clue when/if they are about to run dry.

So as an additional option, we have elite troops make a tactics roll to drop their die class rather than suddenly run out.

ie an ammo die of D8 might suddenly drop to a D6 or D4...

This reminds me of the Purgatory Funds mechanic or rolling dice to see if a character likes food. Let's mechanically ultra-randomize every aspect of the game! Dredwulf, you do not disappoint when bringing the crunch.

garhkal wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
Those who might not want to contaminate their D6 game with strange other shapes could likely work out something with D6s if they really wanted to do something like this.

I've yet to have a player moan when i pop in a D4, 8, 10 or even the rare d12 into a SW game.

If I had seen you do that for the adventure I played with you at Origins last year, trust me, I would have moaned.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I like this, although the idea of using non-D6 dice in a specifically D6 game is something I would prefer to avoid.

And just to make sure all views are represented here, I'll be the grognard that proclaims that using "D&D dice" in a D6 game is blasphemy! Now that that's out of the way, moving on...

thedemonapostle wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
At 25-50 shots per power pack, it's a lot less of a tactical concern, too.

something about this statement rubs me the wrong way.

tactically speaking, with actual real world experience...

i always felt singled out for blaster ammo tracking but whenever i gm'ed and they were the players they would throw a hissy fit about it. so for year i let it go. but im not going to anymore.

Star Wars is not the real world. Just a friendly reminder.

garhkal wrote:
Error wrote:
^ Do you desire this kind of detail in your games? Just curious. Because I would beat my chest and then laugh and then quit if I had to keep track of every weapon my PC's have and its exact disposition. No way!

If you was playig in an ADND like game would you beat your chest then quit if the DM was a stickler about tracking your spell components, arrows/bolts for the archers and the like??

When I DMed D&D as a junior high kid, we kept track of each arrow. I probably still would in Star Wars if I ever had a character who actually carried around and used a primitive bow and arrows regularly, but that will probably never happen. And here, we are talking about blaster weapons anyway. Just a friendly reminder.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: Ammo and the game Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So who here DOES track ammo? Do you lessen the # of shots per weapon to where you are not getting 200 shots a power pack for some, while only 25 for others?

CRMcNeill wrote:
My explanation for high ammo capacity on blasters is also part of their popularity. Each shot converts a tiny amount of blaster gas into a linear plasma discharge, so the volume of a single "round" of ammunition is much lower than for firearms.

garhkal wrote:
If they never need to worry about running out, why even have costs for replacement power packs.. let alone go into great detail about how many spare packs stormies carry.

CRMcNeill wrote:
While I understand some people are more comfortable with tying blaster function closely to their personal experience, I disagree. There is not a single instance in the films of a shooter running out of ammunition mid-battle, and blasters having much larger ammunition capacity compared to modern firearms easily explains this. Efficiency of ammunition as yet another example of technological advancement compared to the modern world is an easy solution.

Error wrote:
No one worries about it in the movies, though various consumables running out has been a plot device in Star Wars: The Clone Wars at least once that I can think of. So it's certainly "in canon".

Keeping track of PC's ammo is one of those thing that helps a three- or four-hour adventure turn into something that has to be punctuated with a meal...

CRMcNeill wrote:
Pretty sure he is on about the Star Wars movies. Where no one ever reloads or runs out of ammunition (or even appears to worry about it). And since the films are the foundation for this entire gaming universe, that's worth taking into consideration.

Yes! Star Wars blaster tech invokes the spirit of those old movies that never kept track of ammo.

In my game, the general norm is that the PCs start out each adventure with full ammo packs loaded in their blaster weapons. Most PCs carry an extra full ammo pack for their primary weapon. Rebels are just given full ammo packs on their base so there are no monetary transactions or bookkeeping for that. Tramps who are self-sufficient and live on their ship are assumed to have off-screen jobs in between the adventures that make money to cover mundane expenses like buying food and refueling, paying taxes, licence renewal fees, new ammo packs, etc. so there is usually no need for bookkeeping for ammo packs. For Rebels or tramps, there are always extra full ammo packs back on the ship. And even in cases where PCs are captured and all their weapons and ammo are taken, it is usually easy to get ammo when reacquiring weapons. (garhkal, that would be the main reason for knowing how many spare ammo packs stormtroopers have, so PCs can take them from downed troopers.)

For blaster weapon ammo capacities of 50 or more, I normally do not bother with having players keep track of shots. It would be so extremely rare for any weapon to fire more than 50 times in a single adventure, let alone a single firefight or where a reload would not be possible in between firefights, so it would just be a waste of time to nickle and dime these large ammo capacity weapons.

However for weapons that have less than 50 shots per ammo pack, like heavy blaster pistols and hold-out blasters, we do keep track of shots. When the ammo pack runs out, it runs out.

For wild die complications shooting blasters, I occasionally use 'the ammo pack is suddenly empty' when things seems to be going too easy for the PCs. That could represent a retroactive 'oops you had forgotten to change the ammo pack' or just a defective pack.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
thedemonapostle wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
At 25-50 shots per power pack, it's a lot less of a tactical concern, too.

something about this statement rubs...


^ Do you desire this kind of detail in your games? Just curious. Because I would beat my chest and then laugh and then quit if I had to keep track of every weapon my PC's have and its exact disposition. No way!

No one worries about it in the movies, though various consumables running out has been a plot device in Star Wars: The Clone Wars at least once that I can think of. So it's certainly "in canon".

Keeping track of PC's ammo is one of those thing that helps a three- or four-hour adventure turn into something that has to be punctuated with a meal...


CRMcNeill wrote:
thedemonapostle wrote:
tactically speaking, with actual real world experience, a 30 round magazine doesn't last as long as everyone thinks it does. not by a long shot

Yet mathematically speaking, all other things being equal, a 100-shot power pack will last 3.33 times longer than a 30-round box magazine. While I understand some people are more comfortable with tying blaster function closely to their personal experience, I disagree. There is not a single instance in the films of a shooter running out of ammunition mid-battle, and blasters having much larger ammunition capacity compared to modern firearms easily explains this. Efficiency of ammunition as yet another example of technological advancement compared to the modern world is an easy solution.


maybe im forgetting something, but i cant recall too many scenes in star wars involving long drawn out battles where it specifically shows people shooting high volumes of blaster shots which would indicate that the blasters themselves would actually have the listed ammo capacity.

when it comes to tracking ammo count, i think it comes down to how we each got started in RPG's. i got started in AD&D 2nd back in 1995. i played a lot of warrior types and every one of them had a ranged weapon or two. we had to keep track of our ammo just like we had to keep track of our hit points, since no one wanted to play a healer. a few years later i started playing star wars d6. at that time we had a gm that tried to steer us away from combat so ammo tracking wasnt a big concern until some of us started making our own custom weapons. i argued that it was unfair to single me out to track ammo if no one else had to. this greatly affected the outcome of the design of the character's signature blaster. basically it went from requiring 4 power packs to get 7 shots to just altering the design to making it a pump action shotgun that uses power packs like shotgun shells. still only 7 shots but the math was easier and it added intimidation. that character went on to create a blaster cannon for a barabel in the party. it angered me because it was a blaster cannon that did 12D character scale damage but had 10 shots per power pack whereas my blaster shotgun only did 7D+1 character scale. we worked it out where the cannon had a rate of fire of 10 shots per minute. its ammo capacity was altered, mainly because the gm was leaving out the parts about the high mishap modifiers. in final it required 5 power packs to get a single shot, but we created a work around on that, the generator ammo backpack. it did nothing for the rate of fire but it did slow down the barabel due to the weight and allowed for less annoying power pack scavenging. its hard to legitimately buy power packs when youre a power armor wearing, cannon wielding, felon.

looking back, i think we did a lot of stuff just to piss off the GMs simply because of some of the rules lawyering they pulled on us. i never would have made so many custom blasters if the gms would have just let me overpower a regular storm trooper's blaster rifle to do 6D damage. it probably didnt help when the gm started saying the battlefield recovered weapons only had 1D ammo left in them. and the only guys that had to track their ammo use were the guys that did NOT use the spray and pray maneuvers.

i use ammo tracking because my current players are the "shoot first, shoot some more, shoot again, and only then when everyone is dead, do they ask questions" types. most are less interested in the intrigue and thinking. plus they tend to only get the weapon and its accompanying power pack, after a campaign of it being heavily used, one must ask, how much ammo do they really have? last game one guy fired over 90 shots from his pistol, i confronted him and said track it or lose it. he went on his own time and found a blaster that comes with a rechargeable power pack and requires replacing after X shots. we sat down and ran him through finding this blaster and he ended up buying several power packs for it just for future use. i applauded this move on his part and he encouraged the rest to do this as well or at least go and try to make some or have some made that do the same thing. so far theres no success on that end.


now in regards to trying to remind everyone that Star Wars is not the real world, we know. when i was younger it was easy to just drop into the fantasy and go. as i aged the gms aged too, and they started using more adult themes within the games. when i became the full time star wars gm, i tried just dropping us all back into the fantasy again. they wanted details on things that had no bearing on the outcomes of anything, like specific models of the ships they we fighting, because according to wookieepedia there was a slight difference in hyperdrive output and they didnt want that wookieepedia info to be used against them. maybe some of you know what im talking about when i say that people use their real world expertise/education/knowledge to make their characters know what they know then they expect you to know this as well. which is annoying when one is a retired army helicopter pilot, another builds giant rockets for a living, a computer engineer, a business strategist, 2 long haul truck drivers, and me labeled by all as the jack of all trades master of none. so for me, forcing extra detail tracking on them is a way of slowing down/stopping their odd requests.
one example:
"i want a starscream-9 ion engine"
"why"
"i want to make a jet pack"
[face palm]

maybe its cruel and unusual but for my games it makes sense. it also makes sense in my games to reduce ammo capacity to real world equivalents because most of us are firearms enthusiasts. the ammo differences have been a long standing issue for us as well. the ones with less experience in firearms are confused as to why an energy weapon doesnt have more, whereas the more experienced wonder why its not less. ive even had some guest players form time to time that were electrical engineers comment on the inner workings of a blaster and how its ammo capacity should be less unless the gas used has some kind of AD&D magical property that defies even the physics within the star wars universe. it was mostly over my head.

well that sums up tonight's thoughts maybe tomorrow will bring something more random and weird that may or may not add to this discussion.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Those who might not want to contaminate their D6 game with strange other shapes could likely work out something with D6s if they really wanted to do something like this.

Here's a D6 take on this concept:
    All Blaster Weapons have an Ammunition Rating, listed as 1D, 2D, 3D, etc...

    On a Wild Die result when firing the Blaster, roll the Blaster's Ammunition against Very Easy Difficulty.

    On a Success, the Blaster can continue firing; on a Failure, it runs out and must be reloaded.

    However, each Success increases the Difficulty for the next Ammunition roll (from Very Easy to Easy, and so on).

    As a result, even on a Success, the shooter will know his weapon is starting to run low...

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Error
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Here's a D6 take on this concept:
    All Blaster Weapons have an Ammunition Rating, listed as 1D, 2D, 3D, etc...

    On a Wild Die result when firing the Blaster, roll the Blaster's Ammunition against Very Easy Difficulty.

    On a Success, the Blaster can continue firing; on a Failure, it runs out and must be reloaded.

    However, each Success increases the Difficulty for the next Ammunition roll (from Very Easy to Easy, and so on).

    As a result, even on a Success, the shooter will know his weapon is starting to run low...

^ This is a perfect D6 take on blaster ammo. However, you will absolutely run into players who do not understand why they would roll dice instead of simply marking their ammo -1. "Hey GM, why doesn't my character know when his power pack is getting low? Can't I just look down at the ammo read on the side of my weapon?" "No, you have to roll..."

I can envision myself getting bored of making my PC's roll twice every time they fire, and just letting them fire repeatedly.

Real world aside, unless it's a plot device, consumables running low just seems unnecessarily punctilious. Obviously this is one of those personal choices GM's must make when inventing an adventure.

EDIT: CRMcNeill - Hehehe, I just realized that your system would technically (though obviously not pragmatically) permit a blaster that would never run out of ammo...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
I can envision myself getting bored of making my PC's roll twice every time they fire, and just letting them fire repeatedly.

To be clear, the double roll would only happen in the event of a Wild Dice Failure on the first roll

Quote:
Real world aside, unless it's a plot device, consumables running low just seems unnecessarily punctilious. Obviously this is one of those personal choices GM's must make when inventing an adventure.

I'm working on a similar rule for converting Consumables on Starships over to dice values. I think the important part of any rule like this is how it affects the story. Cinematically, even in films where ammunition is a factor, the exact number of shots fired is almost never a factor; it's usually a matter of the character announcing "I'm running low" or "I'm out of ammo."

Quote:
EDIT: CRMcNeill - Hehehe, I just realized that your system would technically (though obviously not pragmatically) permit a blaster that would never run out of ammo...

Depends on how you structure it. A Hold-Out Blaster, for instance, with an Ammo of 1D (max result of 6) may beat the first roll (33%), but can't possibly beat the second, as it isn't possible to roll a 10 on a 1D.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
[Which movies you on about.? There are plenty of films where ammo HAS been a concern, such as all the Die hards, the Expendables, Taken 1-3. Heck even Black hawk down they had issues with ammo...
It seems only the older 80s-early 90s action movies, or the John Woo types, don't worry about ammo..

Pretty sure he is on about the Star Wars movies. Where no one ever reloads or runs out of ammunition (or even appears to worry about it). And since the films are the foundation for this entire gaming universe, that's worth taking into consideration.


And how many times in the SW films do we see someone shooting more than 20 or so times anyway?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

demon, I'm sorry to read about your experience with adversarial gaming. From my experience, my philosophy is that roleplaying is a collaborative effort to create interesting stories, so in the end all the players and the GM should be united in one common goal.

thedemonapostle wrote:
when it comes to tracking ammo count, i think it comes down to how we each got started in RPG's. i got started in AD&D 2nd back in 1995. i played a lot of warrior types and every one of them had a ranged weapon or two. we had to keep track of our ammo

In 1980 (elementary school), I started playing D&D and AD&D, and we kept track of range weapon ammo.

In 1983, I ran a homebrew Star Wars game based on D&D and we didn't track blaster ammo. From 1982-1985 I ran a D&D campaign where we did track range weapon ammo. In 1988 I started running WEG Star Wars 1e and we never tracked blaster ammo. At various points from the late 80s to the mid-00s, I played in D&D campaigns where range weapon ammo was tracked. In modern games I've also played over the years with bullet weapons, ammo was tracked. In 1992 I switched from Star Wars 1e to 2e and started tracking blaster ammo, but it got pointless for 50 shot (or more) ammo pack weapons so at some point I adopted my current policy of only tracking low ammo blasters and complications occasionally affecting the higher ones.

So I disagree that how GMs handle ammo is based on how we each started in RPGs. As I stated in my previous post and this one, for me it has everything to do with the ammo capacity and technicalities of the weapons involved (including fictional technicalities).

thedemonapostle wrote:
it also makes sense in my games to reduce ammo capacity to real world equivalents because most of us are firearms enthusiasts. the ammo differences have been a long standing issue for us as well. the ones with less experience in firearms are confused as to why an energy weapon doesnt have more, whereas the more experienced wonder why its not less. ive even had some guest players form time to time that were electrical engineers comment on the inner workings of a blaster and how its ammo capacity should be less unless the gas used has some kind of AD&D magical property that defies even the physics within the star wars universe. it was mostly over my head.

It is impossible for blaster gas to defy the laws of physics in our universe or theirs, because blaster gas is a completely fictional substance with fictional properties being used in a fictional technology. It would make more sense to say that what blasters do would be flat-out impossible in the real world than trying to use real world science to argue they could work as portrayed but only with lower ammo capacities. That's quite silly. It sounds to me like your guest engineers were just trying to sound smart.

thedemonapostle wrote:
maybe its cruel and unusual but for my games it makes sense...

well that sums up tonight's thoughts maybe tomorrow will bring something more random and weird that may or may not add to this discussion.

Hey, the bottom line for all GMs is to each his own.

Error wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Here's a D6 take on this concept...

^ This is a perfect D6 take on blaster ammo. However, you will absolutely run into players who do not understand why they would roll dice instead of simply marking their ammo -1. "Hey GM, why doesn't my character know when his power pack is getting low? Can't I just look down at the ammo read on the side of my weapon?" "No, you have to roll..."

I can envision myself getting bored of making my PC's roll twice every time they fire, and just letting them fire repeatedly.

Real world aside, unless it's a plot device, consumables running low just seems unnecessarily punctilious. Obviously this is one of those personal choices GM's must make

CRM, thanks for the kosher version, but I agree that mechanically randoming it in this way is less desirable than just keeping track of every single blaster shot regardless of weapon ammo pack capacities. With all of my off-screen assumptions, I feel I've found a very happy medium in only tracking low ammo blaster weapons and then making a case-by-case judgement for all blaster weapons whether the first Wild Die 1 rolled has any impact on the ammo packs or not, and getting on with the action. But whatever works for you.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And how many times in the SW films do we see someone shooting more than 20 or so times anyway?

About as many times as we see someone worrying about running out of ammunition, so the point proves nothing either way. As such, I have no reason to disbelieve WEG when it says a blaster rifle power pack holds 100 shots. Science fiction more easily explains high ammunition capacity than it does unlimited ammunition capacity.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
demon, I'm sorry to read about your experience with adversarial gaming. From my experience, my philosophy is that roleplaying is a collaborative effort to create interesting stories, so in the end all the players and the GM should be united in one common goal.

^ Oh man, this all day. Adversarial gaming is such a drag... I feel so lucky to have not experienced much of it. I like the PC's clobbering the "level boss" as much as they do...and sometimes more.

Whill wrote:
Hey, the bottom line for all GMs is to each his own.

This too. I will definitely keep track of how many rockets our Mandalorian death commando rips. A DL-18 though? Nahhh.

Whill wrote:
CRM, thanks for the kosher version, but I agree that mechanically randoming it in this way is less desirable than just keeping track of every single blaster shot regardless of weapon ammo pack capacities. With all of my off-screen assumptions, I feel I've found a very happy medium in only tracking low ammo blaster weapons and then making a case-by-case judgement for all blaster weapons whether the first Wild Die 1 rolled has any impact on the ammo packs or not, and getting on with the action. But whatever works for you.

The problem for me is the SHEER BULK of "sh*t to keep track of". You'll eat a half page of paper crossing off a blaster rifle's rounds from 100 to 0. It just eats TABLE SPACE.

This DISCUSSION just affirms for me how different we all are in the way we run our games. Some folks like to mix real world science in with the SWU and in most cases those unions are pretty cool. Other folks like pure fantasy.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:

The problem for me is the SHEER BULK of "sh*t to keep track of". You'll eat a half page of paper crossing off a blaster rifle's rounds from 100 to 0. It just eats TABLE SPACE.
.


Hence my suggestion of knocking them down to 50 shots or lower..
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