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Languages, Fluency, and Gaming the System
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:30 am    Post subject: Languages, Fluency, and Gaming the System Reply with quote

So, the rule is that if you have 5D in a languages specialization, you are considered fluent and never need to roll for that language under normal circumstances (R&E p. 43).

So, how broadly does that apply? If I have 5D in languages, I can be considered to have 5D in all its specializations, right? If I have 4d+2 in Languages, can I become fluent in any language for 4 CP (Improving my new specialization from 4D+2 to 5D?)

(Sure, I can bypass all this by ponying up three grand for a shiny new 3PO, but that's beside the point)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that, to take advantage of this rule, you have to specialize in a specific language. Specializing in a category or group of languages would just help you build skill level for the standard Fluency roll.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd say that, to take advantage of this rule, you have to specialize in a specific language. Specializing in a category or group of languages would just help you build skill level for the standard Fluency roll.


But that would allow 4D+2 Language to specialize in languages to 5D at 4 CP a pop, right? Instant Fluency?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, it would be 2cp a pop.

And who really cares? What good is a game if the characters can never understand what's being said?

Is it as broken as LSC? Do we really need to "fix" it? I guess it depends on how important languages are in a given campaign.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Actually, it would be 2cp a pop.

And who really cares? What good is a game if the characters can never understand what's being said?

Is it as broken as LSC? Do we really need to "fix" it? I guess it depends on how important languages are in a given campaign.


New specialties are full cost.

And, really, I don't care... but it's an interesting question about the system.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages, Fluency, and Gaming the System Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
So, the rule is that if you have 5D in a languages specialization, you are considered fluent and never need to roll for that language under normal circumstances (R&E p. 43).

So, how broadly does that apply? If I have 5D in languages, I can be considered to have 5D in all its specializations, right?


Nope. You could have a base languages skill of 8d, and still not be considered fluent, unless you roll 10 top end difficult language rolls..

MrNexx wrote:
If I have 4d+2 in Languages, can I become fluent in any language for 4 CP (Improving my new specialization from 4D+2 to 5D?)


Yup. I've seen many pcs do just that, while others just keep upping the base languages skill, so they can roll for fluency for all languages they come across.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In college, I went on a trip to Eastern Europe. One of my teammates already spoke three languages (English, French and Cantonese; he was raised in Homg Kong). After four weeks, he was able to have conversations of intermediate difficulty in Macedonian (the local Slavic language).

Some people just have a gift for Languages...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: Languages, Fluency, and Gaming the System Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
But that would allow 4D+2 Language to specialize in languages to 5D at 4 CP a pop, right? Instant Fluency?
Naaman wrote:
Actually, it would be 2cp a pop.
MrNexx wrote:
New specialties are full cost.

There's no such rule of new specialties costing more than improving existing ones. Specialties advance at half the cost of skills (rounded up) and gaining new specializations is whatever cost comes from raising it one pip from its starting point. CRM, Naaman and garkhal are correct. Since a language specialty of 5D or higher gives you fluency in RAW, you could park your languages skill at 4D+2 and spend only 2 CPs for each new fluency. In your original example, having 5D languages would mean you would have to spend 3 CPs to get each fluency at 5D+1, so it would be cheaper to raise from 4D+2 in languages. (In my game, the CP cost is based on the value being raised to, not the current value, so raising a specialization to 5D would cost 3 CPs.)

Like garkhal said you could also go the route of having very high base languages so that you make the 10 difficult language rolls to gain a fluency, but if you have a high base languages then you can generally understand things without being fluent so the fluencies don't matter as much.

I also use the RAW optional rule of allowing players to buy additional language fluencies in char gen at the rate of one language per skill pip/specialty die. And that is on top of my house rule that PCs start with a number of language fluencies equal to the number in front of their starting languages skill (or Knowledge). Since PCs in my game can't have less than 2D in Knowledge, that means all PCs will always start with at least two fluencies. Aliens will often know the human language on top of a native language. In my SWU, Huttese and Bocci are common languages in the outer and mid rims.

I don't have an issue with PCs being fluent in multiple languages and gaining fluencies fairly easily. Knowing multiple languages is very common in the Star Wars galaxy, so much so that a lot of beings speak different languages to each other in the same conversation and they understand each other. I just write it off to many languages having millennia to influence each other and sentient brains having highly evolved language centers.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There's no such rule of new specialties costing more than improving existing ones.


I think he was on about when you first get a specialty in game (hence it being new) it costs just as much to get it, as popping the skill up a pip.. THEN they advance at half cost.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: Languages, Fluency, and Gaming the System Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I also use the RAW optional rule of allowing players to buy additional language fluencies in char gen at the rate of one language per skill pip/specialty die. And that is on top of my house rule that PCs start with a number of language fluencies equal to the number in front of their starting languages skill (or Knowledge). Since PCs in my game can't have less than 2D in Knowledge, that means all PCs will always start with at least two fluencies. Aliens will often know the human language on top of a native language. In my SWU, Huttese and Bocci are common languages in the outer and mid rims.

I don't have an issue with PCs being fluent in multiple languages and gaining fluencies fairly easily. Knowing multiple languages is very common in the Star Wars galaxy, so much so that a lot of beings speak different languages to each other in the same conversation and they understand each other. I just write it off to many languages having millennia to influence each other and sentient brains having highly evolved language centers.


I do this too. It was born of Wookiees and the like that can't speak basic. If you have 2D in knowledge, then you know two languages. I count Twi'leks lekku language as a language, and the Lorrdian body language.

I have a Wookiees who took 1D+2 Know. He is fully fluent in Shyriiwook, and can understand spoken basic, but can't read basic.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Quote:
There's no such rule of new specialties costing more than improving existing ones.

I think he was on about when you first get a specialty in game (hence it being new) it costs just as much to get it, as popping the skill up a pip.. THEN they advance at half cost.

What page and paragraph are getting this rule from?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Quote:
There's no such rule of new specialties costing more than improving existing ones.

I think he was on about when you first get a specialty in game (hence it being new) it costs just as much to get it, as popping the skill up a pip.. THEN they advance at half cost.

What page and paragraph are getting this rule from?


I looked it up last night while the baby was crying. It's page 35 of R&E, but I misread it.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
There's no such rule of new specialties costing more than improving existing ones.

I think he was on about when you first get a specialty in game (hence it being new) it costs just as much to get it, as popping the skill up a pip.. THEN they advance at half cost.

What page and paragraph are getting this rule from?

It's page 35 of R&E, but I misread it.

It seems you weren't the only one.

R&E p.35 wrote:
Learning New Skills
Skills and Specializations. Characters can learn a new skill or specialization by paying enough Character Points to advance it one pip above the attribute.

garhkal, "paying enough" doesn't mean paying the same for specializations as skills. Enough means whatever they (skills and specializations) each cost to advance them one pip normally applies for getting them new. Since the half-cost rounded up is the cost to advance specializations, that is "enough" to get new specializations. I do feel it is rather poorly worded.

MrNexx wrote:
I looked it up last night while the baby was crying.

Sometimes I catch myself missing those days. Then I come to my senses. Cool
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

MrNexx wrote:
I looked it up last night while the baby was crying.

Sometimes I catch myself missing those days. Then I come to my senses. Cool


Fortunately, he's not an all-night screamer. Last night, he just passed out WAY early, so he woke up about 130. The dogs barking until 230 was the real problem. Anyone want a pitbull puppy?
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