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Should Capital Ships Have Slower Hyperdrives?
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Another question on hyperdrives is criteria for what ship has what sort of multiplier.

For instance, the ISD I has a x2, while the ISD II has a x1, literally twice as fast. So what criteria should be set as to what sort of ship can be equipped with a x1 drive, as opposed to a x2.

Also, just out of curiosity, do any of you use alternative modifiers as interim steps between the existing modifiers?

What I mean by this is, while a x2 hyperdrive is 33% faster than a x3 hyperdrive, a x1 is 50% faster than a x2, and likewise with a x1/2 over a x1. It seems a little bit off to me that hyperdrive speeds would scale up so much more quickly as they get faster; I would think that, at the higher speed levels, the increases in speed would get closer and closer together, due to incremental improvements in technology.

For myself, adding in a x1.5 and x.75 modifier results in an alternating progression of 33% and 25% increases in speed when progressing from x3 to x1/2 (and continues if you decide to add in x1/3 and x1/4 modifiers for advanced tech).

Anyway, weigh in.


That's always bothered me as well. Why the large jump from x1 to x1/2, for instance. Shouldn't it be x1, x.9, x.8, or something similar?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
That's always bothered me as well. Why the large jump from x1 to x1/2, for instance. Shouldn't it be x1, x.9, x.8, or something similar?

On the one hand, I can see why WEG might want to default to simple math; it's far easier to calculate out 1/2 of 4 hours than it is to calculate 9/10's...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Should Capital Ships Have Slower Hyperdrives?

This makes intuitive sense to me too, but I don't really have any strong feelings one way of the other.

I will say I don't feel that larger ships should necessarily tend to be faster in hyperspace. I view realspace matter such as starships to be alien to hyperspace. Larger ships having larger hyperdrives make it possible to even get them into hyperspace in the first place (larger hyperdrive/ship, larger temporary portal between realspace and hyperspace). I don't see larger hyperdrives/ships necessarily having anything to do with speed there. I think my view of the fictional hyperspace is definitely influenced by my training in mathematics and coursework in physics...

Zarn wrote:
When it comes to the point of using Einsteinian physics for hyperspace - they likely break down, either partially or completely, in the case of hyperspace travel...

For E = mc^2 to be correct, one would have to use the speed of light as a limit; indeed, that equation is predicated on that notion. Arguing that particular equation in a superluminal context is extending the equation into an area where the prerequisites for the equation are not met.

I think I see what you're getting at but this is not completely correct. The term c here refers to the speed of light in a vacuum and this equation itself describes a general energy-matter equivalence for objects at rest. c is a constant so this equation does not involve any considerations of variable speeds. The heart of this equation is E=m, and the c^2 makes our units of measure work out correctly.

Now this statement of energy-matter equivalence is a consequence of special relativity which involves comparisons of different frames of reference at variable speeds, with respect to several aspects such as mass and time. The easiest way for me to consider speeds greater than c is by way of the equations for computing time dilation. If you enter a speed faster than c the result includes the square root of a negative number, which makes your calculator say "error". This would seem to imply that superluminal speeds are not possible, at least in our universe. So it's not that there are unmet prerequisites for this equation, it's that the end results of the formulas do not produce results within the realm of "real numbers" for FTL speeds.

However the square root of -1 defines the term i, and the results of the time dilation equations for superluminal speeds can be expressed with "complex numbers" which include components of both real numbers and "imaginary numbers" (multiples of i). The total body of modern mathematics includes a whole lot of math for the sake of math (pure mathematics) in addition to the practical math (applied mathematics). In pursuit of my university degree I took three Abstract Algebra courses which included some ventures into pure mathematics involving complex numbers. Sometimes pure mathematics become applied mathematics when we eventually develop practical applications for them.

Realspace is named that because of the equation's "real number" results. The "breakdown" of special relativity's ability to demonstrate what happens for ships moving superluminal speeds is actually a demonstration that the complex number results (which include an "imaginary" relative time component) exist outside the realm of the 4-dimensional space-time continuum we experience and observe.

The hypothetical hyperspace is a transdimensional setting for superluminal speeds where complex number results would apply, but of course the actual mathematics involved are disregarded for broad hand waves that eliminate time dilation completely, having superluminal ships experience time nearly identically to time on planets and ships travelling with sublight engines, thus just getting the simple benefit of travelling a much greater distance in any given time then would be possible in realspace.

Time dilation is also virtually eliminated in subluminal travel as well, which is why I have posited that the actual transition to and from hyperspace must occur at a speed significantly below the speed of light (nonrelativistic speeds) or the ship and those aboard would age many years in a second of planet time during the brief jumps to and from "lightspeed". So hyperspace travel also eliminates any significant real number results from the special relativity equations.

What I think CRMcNeill meant to refer to was another aspect of special relativity that demonstrates how relative mass increases as objects accelerate towards the speed of light, this requiring greater and greater energy to move them. This problem is also greatly reduced by the actual transition to and from hyperspace occurring well below c at nonrelativistic speeds. Even accelerating to 10% the speed of light (where special relativity would start to matter) would require massive amounts of energy, so in my view hyperspace has a "natural rest state" of superluminal speed. Jumping to lightspeed entails the ship tearing open a portal to hyperspace in front of the ship, and the natural superluminal state of hyperspace itself "sucks" the ship into it which closes the portal behind it. Then the ship quickly accelerates to "natural" hyperspace speeds. Dropping out of hyperspace involves "dropping a realspace anchor field" and this drag effect reduces the speed to below the speed of light. Then hyperspace spits the ship out into realspace, and the quickly closing portal (now behind the ship) has the same "sucking" effect which decelerates the ship back to normal sublight engine speed (there is a realspace conservation of energy thing going on where the ship reverts back to realspace at the same velocity it was going before the jump to lightspeed).

The reason larger ships having slower hyperdrives seems intuitive to me is because in my concept of hyperspace, it is not natural for realspace ships to be there in the first place. All starships are foreign objects and larger starships are larger foreign objects. Hyperspace may actively try to eject foreign objects from it and larger ships are larger objections, or perhaps larger ships have a greater "realspace drag" quality about them. Maybe there would be a tendency for smaller ships to be faster, but it still depends on the ships because the speeds obtainable partially depend on the hyperdrive's ability to reduce the realspace drag effect. So I'm interested in seeing where else this discussion goes.

CRMcNeill wrote:
jmanski wrote:
That's always bothered me as well. Why the large jump from x1 to x1/2, for instance. Shouldn't it be x1, x.9, x.8, or something similar?

On the one hand, I can see why WEG might want to default to simple math; it's far easier to calculate out 1/2 of 4 hours than it is to calculate 9/10's...

I completely agree that hyperdrive multipliers should have more gradients, but the arithmetic is not that difficult! I try not to go all math professor on my players, but come on. Counting pips is child's play, and when calculating base travel times it is perfectly acceptable to use a calculator to quickly multiply by decimal amounts or fractions (divide by the bottom number and multiply that by the top number).
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Last edited by Whill on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RedKnight
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

or they are fast because they have the power to spare to dump into them for increased speed/can support much more powerful drives ?
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quick reply as i dont have the current patience to sit and read all of whats been said thus far, just wanted to drop my thought son the matter.

while your initial statement has valid points, youre comparing apples to oranges with naval craft and aircraft. for example it would be battleship/carrier vs fishing boat vs speed boat; and for aircraft it would be a c-5 galaxy vs a c-130 vs an f/a-18. or grand craft, like a train vs big rig vs ups truck vs racecar.

range is certainly a huge factor for all platforms listed and seems to have more to do with onboard fuel supply.

speed on the other hand, which is closer to the topic of this discussion has mostly to do with the engine equipped. for naval craft that has serious limitations the higher the displacement of the vessel. but for aircraft it seems more limited to cost, rather than ability. for example the B-1 Lancer Supersonic heavy strategic bomber can do mach 1.25. pretty darn fast for a bomber larger than a Boeing 737. but coming closer to what we all pretty much have much more experience with, ground vehicles. when it comes to ground vehicles, im pretty sure we have all heard of japan's 200 mph bullet trains. as i recall one of the frequent commenters on here drives big rigs (large diesel truck and trailer(s)), so im betting they could tell you more about the speed they are capable of, but even with my limited experience with them ive seen a few that can do 150+ mph.

one thing that you might consider is how long it takes them to speed up, kinda like the 0-60mph ratings of fast cars. maybe it just takes them slightly longer to get up and going, but because they have more power to dump into the hyperdrive they can go faster, but only once theyre up and going. but maybe theirs a downside too, like they need a larger buffer zone in front of them for when they come out of hyperspace in order to slow down to sub light speeds safely.

maybe ive diverted entirely off topic and lost any idea of what you might be going for...who knows...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worth noting that there seems to be minimum size limit for hyperdrive technology, as well. Hyperdrives have been around for thousands of years, yet have only become small enough to be integrated into starfighters within ~20-30 BBY. If WEG's Hyperspace multiplier values are an accurate measuring stick, it might indicate that the technology bottleneck was in Whill's portal generator, specifically that technological limitations imposed a hard minimum size on that particular component of a hyperdrive, while other components (those dedicated to generating and maintaining velocity in hyperspace, as expressed by the hyperdrive multiplier) continued to advance. Since war has a tendency to push technological advancement, and the first on-screen appearance of starfighters that didn't require hyperdrive rings wasn't until the Clone Wars, I'd say that's when the breakthrough happened.

That might also explain why some starfighters have lower hyperspace speeds. The mass of the portal generator forced the designers to use smaller, slower drive components...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thedemonapostle wrote:
as i recall one of the frequent commenters on here drives big rigs (large diesel truck and trailer(s)), so im betting they could tell you more about the speed they are capable of, but even with my limited experience with them ive seen a few that can do 150+ mph.

That would be me.

First off, while I have no doubt that there are trucks out there that can do 150+ mph, the thought of going that fast on the open road in a big rig is utterly terrifying. The only place I would ever consider taking a rig that fast would be on a closed, straight-line course like the Bonneville Salt Flats or something. The same physics that make big rigs slow to accelerate also make them slow to stop, and the confined conditions in which big rigs operate (multi-lane roads surrounded by morons in small cars) make high speeds a disaster waiting to happen (it takes big rigs 4 times as long as cars to stop, in both time and distance).

In the end, while there may be parallels in the physics, practical operational restrictions do not make highways and streets a good parallel to the conditions found at sea or in aerospace.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
If WEG's Hyperspace multiplier values are an accurate measuring stick, it might indicate that the technology bottleneck was in Whill's portal generator, specifically that technological limitations imposed a hard minimum size on that particular component of a hyperdrive, while other components (those dedicated to generating and maintaining velocity in hyperspace, as expressed by the hyperdrive multiplier) continued to advance. Since war has a tendency to push technological advancement, and the first on-screen appearance of starfighters that didn't require hyperdrive rings wasn't until the Clone Wars, I'd say that's when the breakthrough happened.

That might also explain why some starfighters have lower hyperspace speeds. The mass of the portal generator forced the designers to use smaller, slower drive components...

"Whill's portal generator" is probably just the Hyperdrive Motivator. Smile

I completely agree about the technological advancement. The Clone Wars was the first large scale war in the Republic in 1000 years, and our history shows that wars do tend to advance technology, especially military technologies. In my SWU, no starfighters had their own hyperdrives until sometime during the Clone Wars. Before that some starfighters had to use hyperdrive rings like Obi-Wan in AotC, or they had to be carried through hyperspace by larger craft. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned elsewhere that in my SWU the N-1s did not even have short range hyperdrives in AotC, so the Naboo Senator's escort ships only travelled through hyperspace by docking with her barge.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
"Whill's portal generator" is probably just the Hyperdrive Motivator. Smile

Whill is probably right. Wink

Quote:
In my SWU, no starfighters had their own hyperdrives until sometime during the Clone Wars. Before that some starfighters had to use hyperdrive rings like Obi-Wan in AotC, or they had to be carried through hyperspace by larger craft. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned elsewhere that in my SWU the N-1s did not even have short range hyperdrives in AotC, so the Naboo Senator's escort ships only travelled through hyperspace by docking with her barge.

Seeing as how all the prequel starfighters that mated with a hyperdrive ring included onboard astromechs, I'd guess that the N-1 could likely mate up with a ring, as well. It certainly makes the presence of an astromech more plausible.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, but astromech's have other purposes besides holding astrogational coordinates. They do in-flight repairs and rerouting of power. That's all they did in the space battles in ANH and TPM, both of which did not have any starfighters travelling through hyperspace.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
True, but astromech's have other purposes besides holding astrogational coordinates. They do in-flight repairs and rerouting of power. That's all they did in the space battles in ANH and TPM, both of which did not have any starfighters travelling through hyperspace.

True, but ANH and TPM, they didn't need to, because the target was there in-system. I don't generally consider the fact that we didn't see something happen on screen to be conclusive proof that it doesn't happen at all. For me, allowing the N-1 to use a hyperdrive ring is a workable compromise with your theory on starfighter hyperdrive development and the Canon N-1 having a x1 hyperdrive. YMMV.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about the rings. In my last post above I was specifically commenting on your statement about the ships having some form of hyperspace travel making the presence of an astromech "more plausible". Because of the droids' in-flight repair work, starfighters still have a very good reason to use astromechs with or without hyperspace travel.

By bringing the Battle of Yavin into it, I wasn't in any way suggesting that X-Wings didn't have hyperdrives at the time. (Nor was I suggesting that N-1s didn't ever use hyperrings.) I wasn't at all referring to what was not on screen. I was referring to was on screen in those two films, astromech droids being very useful without any hyperspace travel purposes. I was objecting to your use of the phrase "more plausible." Storing hyperspace coordinates is yet another reason for astromechs in starfighters, but you made it sound like there's hardly any reason for astromech's without it.

The queen's ship in TPM had six or more astromech droids used for their repair services. Even if they also stored emergency backup hyperspace coordinates in case of the navicomputer being on the fritz, that would not be their primary purpose on that ship. I know that wasn't a starfighter, but it still highlights my point about astromech droids' very significant in-flight repair purpose, a extremely "plausible" reason for any ships to have them.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

First off, while I have no doubt that there are trucks out there that can do 150+ mph, the thought of going that fast on the open road in a big rig is utterly terrifying. The only place I would ever consider taking a rig that fast would be on a closed, straight-line course like the Bonneville Salt Flats or something. The same physics that make big rigs slow to accelerate also make them slow to stop, and the confined conditions in which big rigs operate (multi-lane roads surrounded by morons in small cars) make high speeds a disaster waiting to happen (it takes big rigs 4 times as long as cars to stop, in both time and distance)..


I've seen that first hand unfortunately. 2 Origin's ago, on the drive in, just past the I70/71 junction, traffic was backed up a little bit, but you didn't spot it till you got around one of the earlier curves. As i was in the far right lane (to get off), i was luckily not involved, but a truck came barreling in the outer left lane, and tried to skirt vehicles as he slowed down (too late), and clipped 5 straight cars.. 2 rather badly.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I agree about the rings. In my last post above I was specifically commenting on your statement about the ships having some form of hyperspace travel making the presence of an astromech "more plausible". Because of the droids' in-flight repair work, starfighters still have a very good reason to use astromechs with or without hyperspace travel.

Gotcha. I got the impression from your earlier post that you were implying that N-1's not only lacked internal hyperdrives but were also unable to mate with hyperdrive rings, which seemed rather wasteful to me. IMO, any prequel era Starfighter that is equipped with an astromech droid should also be capable of using a hyperdrive ring, so as to make the fullest potential use of the astromech.

As an aside, I've always wondered about the vulnerability of hyperdrive rings. Once a Starfighter disconnects and flies in system, what is to keep someone from flying up and shooting the immobile ring out of space, and thus stranding the fighter in that system? On top of that, the ring's location requires the starfighter to return to a fixed point in the system if it wants to leave, which makes the fighter much easier to intercept.

One solution I've considered is allowing hyperdrive rings to function in two modes, so that once the fighter is disconnected, the ring makes a stationary jump, then basically hovers in hyperspace, out of reach from any attack from realspace. When the pilot needs the ring again, he flies to the ring's approximate location and broadcasts a short range hypercomm code that instructs the ring to drop back into realspace to rendezvous with the fighter.

This concept still has some tactical weaknesses, but at least enemy fighters can't just fly up and blast the ring out of space.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I've seen that first hand unfortunately. 2 Origin's ago, on the drive in, just past the I70/71 junction, traffic was backed up a little bit, but you didn't spot it till you got around one of the earlier curves. As i was in the far right lane (to get off), i was luckily not involved, but a truck came barreling in the outer left lane, and tried to skirt vehicles as he slowed down (too late), and clipped 5 straight cars.. 2 rather badly.

Happens all the time. I've seen fatal wrecks where big rig drivers didn't stop in time and plowed into the backs of cars stopped on the freeway because of heavy traffic.
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