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Lightsaber Combat, things die really fast
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Azai
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:21 am    Post subject: Lightsaber Combat, things die really fast Reply with quote

I could be doing it wrong but I haven't seen the epic lightsaber duels that play out in the movies/games/shows in our games. What really happens is first person to hit what they are dueling, they straight out kill them.

Has anyone tried things different? I think I remember a while back some people on here where trying a few different ways.

Just to make sure I'm not doing it wrong, and can solve the problem correcting myself this is how I have it play out. Opposed rolls(reaction lightsaber), when hit lightsaber damage (5D) + STR = dice rolled to deal damage.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Lightsaber Combat, things die really fast Reply with quote

Azai wrote:
I could be doing it wrong but I haven't seen the epic lightsaber duels that play out in the movies/games/shows in our games. What really happens is first person to hit what they are dueling, they straight out kill them.

Has anyone tried things different? I think I remember a while back some people on here where trying a few different ways.

Just to make sure I'm not doing it wrong, and can solve the problem correcting myself this is how I have it play out. Opposed rolls(reaction lightsaber), when hit lightsaber damage (5D) + STR = dice rolled to deal damage.


Incorrect. You take the base 5d damage, and IF they have the lightsaber combat skill up, you add the Control value MINUS MAPS to it.
So say John jedi has 5d Control and sense and 5d lightsaber. If he has the power up (2 actions), and attacks once with one defense that is 4 actions for -3D from MAPS. So when he attacks he adds +2d to his lightsaber skill.
IF he hits, he then does 5d +control - MAPS for 7d.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played under quite a few GMs who, if you were keeping a power up (including lightsaber combat), only applied the MAP in the round you brought the power up.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Lightsaber Combat, things die really fast Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Azai wrote:
I could be doing it wrong but I haven't seen the epic lightsaber duels that play out in the movies/games/shows in our games. What really happens is first person to hit what they are dueling, they straight out kill them.

Has anyone tried things different? I think I remember a while back some people on here where trying a few different ways.

Just to make sure I'm not doing it wrong, and can solve the problem correcting myself this is how I have it play out. Opposed rolls(reaction lightsaber), when hit lightsaber damage (5D) + STR = dice rolled to deal damage.


Incorrect. You take the base 5d damage, and IF they have the lightsaber combat skill up, you add the Control value MINUS MAPS to it.
So say John jedi has 5d Control and sense and 5d lightsaber. If he has the power up (2 actions), and attacks once with one defense that is 4 actions for -3D from MAPS. So when he attacks he adds +2d to his lightsaber skill.
IF he hits, he then does 5d +control - MAPS for 7d.


Am I misremembering? I thought you applied Sense to your Skill, and Control to your damage.
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Azai
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of my players have lightsaber combat. I should have been more clearer. General lightsaber combat, not the force power, things seem to die really fast.

Though from what I gather, you do not add your STR to your damage rolls with a lightsaber? As you would with other melee weapons.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azai wrote:
None of my players have lightsaber combat. I should have been more clearer. General lightsaber combat, not the force power, things seem to die really fast.

Though from what I gather, you do not add your STR to your damage rolls with a lightsaber? As you would with other melee weapons.


Correct; Strength is irrelevant in Lightsaber combat. All that matters is your DEX skill "Lightsaber", as that is used for both attack and defense.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I've played under quite a few GMs who, if you were keeping a power up (including lightsaber combat), only applied the MAP in the round you brought the power up.

Which is a house rule, as BTB MAPS apply for any power kept up. If its a 2 force skill power, its 2 MAPS..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
I've played under quite a few GMs who, if you were keeping a power up (including lightsaber combat), only applied the MAP in the round you brought the power up.

Which is a house rule, as BTB MAPS apply for any power kept up. If its a 2 force skill power, its 2 MAPS..

What's the reference for that? It certainly makes sense.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garhkal is slightly incorrect on his math in his first post. The Jedi John in question would roll 8D, not 7D.

The number of MAPs.is always 1 less then the number of actions. So, power up (2 actions) plus attack (3rd action) results in a MAP of -2D on a single attack roll.

Furthermore, as I read the rules, the sense skill and control skill are not MAPped more than once for purposes of calculating the attack roll/damage. In other words, once LSC is up, just add everything up, subtract 2D, and then apply MAPs from there. So Jedi John always rolls 8D for damage no matter how many attacks/parries he makes.

If (for some unfathomable reason) he declares a parry at the start of the round, his attack roll would be 7D (as it is the 4th action) but damage is still 8D.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to the issue of first hit wins, I fail to see how this is different from the films/shows.

If you want to emulate the films, you need a few things to happen:

1) Include lots of terrain: require players to make lots of different kinds of rolls during the encounter.

Go watch all the lightsaber duels you want and try to figure out how many different skills migjt be involved.

2) Why in the WORLD doe saber duelists punch kick each other? Dont they know their opponent gets a huge bonus to parry, which will result in getting their limb lopped off? Or could it be that the opponents are sso closely matched in skill that their "successful" attack rolls win by such a small margin that the only opening they get must be exploited by an impromptu brawling attack?

Try this: of the attack roll wins by less than x, the attacker rolls his base strength for damage. And no: having on a special spikey guantlet doesn't add to the damage. This represennts an attack that is more or less incidental or "lucky."

3) More than one problem at a time. This is kinda like #1 above, but think about Mace in the arena... He had to deal with Jango, that rhinocerous thing, and whatever other blaster bolts may have been zipping by him in the chaos.

Luke on Jabba's skiff comes to mind, but I generally consider that whole sceen to be the Jar Jar Binks of the OT.

Anyway, by spicing up the fight, you force players to roll more than just their Lightsaber skill, thereby inflicting MAPs and reducing the likelihood of a hit in the first place (remember: a roll of less than 20 misses no matter what).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless, the point remains that the WEG version of lightsaber combat falls far short of duplicating cinematic lightsaber combat. Others have made the point that no set of rules possibly can, but it really does seem that, with the RAW, WEG wasn't really even trying.

I've come up with my own versions based on the Dueling Blades system, but never really hammered out the rules completely. I agree with Naaman on terrain, but would also suggest some sort of mechanism for scene changes. Very few saber battles in the films stay in the same locale for very long, and each new environment presents its own set of challenges, advantages and disadvantages for the combatants.

IMO, the best approach would be a variant on Dueling Blades where a successful attack for damage is far out of reach for either combatant initially (unless one has at least a 5D-6D skill advantage over the other). Instead, a success on an opposed roll generates an advantage that applies to the next round's roll, which generates another advantage, and so on and so forth, until one character's continued successes has generated enough of a bonus to land a blow, or make a trick attack, such as a knockdown or disarm or something. On the other side of the dice roll, the loser would have the option to make an evasive move or break free from combat, thus resetting the bonus progression.

It's not something I've put a lot of thought into lately, but I think it's a workable solution with the right rule.

Of course, it's noteworthy that, apart from lightsaber duels, lightsabers pretty much only need one hit to kill anything else in the films...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Garhkal is slightly incorrect on his math in his first post. The Jedi John in question would roll 8D, not 7D.

The number of MAPs.is always 1 less then the number of actions. So, power up (2 actions) plus attack (3rd action) results in a MAP of -2D on a single attack roll.

Furthermore, as I read the rules, the sense skill and control skill are not MAPped more than once for purposes of calculating the attack roll/damage. In other words, once LSC is up, just add everything up, subtract 2D, and then apply MAPs from there. So Jedi John always rolls 8D for damage no matter how many attacks/parries he makes.

If (for some unfathomable reason) he declares a parry at the start of the round, his attack roll would be 7D (as it is the 4th action) but damage is still 8D.

Which if you note i DID have him do. He declared his parry from the get go, for that example making 4 actions not 3, hence -3d for MAPS.

Though i often wonder WHY when you have LSC up, you are not applying MAPS to both your Lightsaber skill AND your Control/Sense skills??
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

What's the reference for that? It certainly makes sense.


Page 142..
A character who is keeping a power "up" is using the power's Force skills as long as the power is operating, and loses die codes as if taking actions.
Example: Resist stun, a control power, maybe kept "up." The power is activated if the Jedi rolls the sense difficulty. The Jedi may keep the power
"up," but loses -ID to all other actions.
Lightsaber combat is a control and sense power and may be kept up. The Jedi may keep the power up, but loses -2D to all other actions because lightsaber combat requires two Force skills.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if WEG applied the "one power at a time" rule in their Metaphysics abilities specifically because of the complications of MAP tracking.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you on about D6 space??
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