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ZzaphodD
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 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Ankhanu wrote: | | C'mon guys, knock it off. The threads gone WAY off track. |
Fair point. Sorry Ankhanu.
To return to your earlier topic.
| Ankhanu wrote: | | I've never been keen on the Dueling Blades system, nor the derivatives I've seen. The mechanics aren't very d6 to me; while they do add certain dimensions to combat, it mutates the game experience to something... other, imo. |
I like the fact that Dueling Blades attempts to allow lightsaber duels to occur in a cinematic fashion that lasts more than one round. But I agree that something just feels off to the system.
The problem I see Dueling Blades as trying to address is that with the RAW lightsabers do so much damage in the hands of an experienced force user that no PC or NPC can really afford to allow their opponent to succeed in a strike. This tends to make at least one opponent choose to use a FP immediately to double thier skills and attributes. But as soon as one character uses (or might use) a FP the other must also use a FP or forfeit the duel (by bisection or decapitation).
Once a FP is used that magnifies any difference in ability between the characters which, again, is likely to result in an instant kill.
What is needed is a system that makes combat interesting and something other than single round instant kills.
Thoughts on how to better address this? |
My version of the Duelling Blades system is not that far from the RAW in the sense that each combatant both roll Attack and Defence dice. That can easily be translated into actuall attack and parry actions. Just add the Duelling Blades list of effects to get past the 'poof your dead' problem with lightsaber combat today.
Keep the attack, attack, parry approach, but put in a 'buffer' zone where you must beat your opponents defence with a certain margin to actually score a hit. If your attack roll ends up in this buffer zone you can get the 'push back' or 'knock down' results from DB (you can even make it more cinematic if you want). Add to that the possibility of shifting dice from offense to defence and vice versa and you will end up with something workable.
The major drawback with the RAW system is that even two experienced combatants with equal skills will only fight for a round or so before someone dies.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | My version of the Duelling Blades system is not that far from the RAW in the sense that each combatant both roll Attack and Defence dice. That can easily be translated into actuall attack and parry actions. Just add the Duelling Blades list of effects to get past the 'poof your dead' problem with lightsaber combat today.
Keep the attack, attack, parry approach, but put in a 'buffer' zone where you must beat your opponents defence with a certain margin to actually score a hit. If your attack roll ends up in this buffer zone you can get the 'push back' or 'knock down' results from DB (you can even make it more cinematic if you want). Add to that the possibility of shifting dice from offense to defence and vice versa and you will end up with something workable.
The major drawback with the RAW system is that even two experienced combatants with equal skills will only fight for a round or so before someone dies. |
OK, I will have to re-look at this. Having combat end quickly is fine for mooks (assuming it's the mooks doing the dying). But it is anticlimatic to have the big confrontation with the central villain of an entire campaign arc end in just one or two rounds. With that short of a confrontation I expect the winner to push one of these right after.
Last edited by Bren on Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Another possible variation would be to introduce new results and increase the "step" size on the Dueling Blades combat table, requiring a higher successful roll to achieve a given result. Something along the lines of:
Winner
0-6 = Stalemate (Neither opponent gains an advantage over the other)
7-12 = Force Back
13-18 = Knock Off Balance
19-24 = Wound
25+ = Trick
This would allow duelists to have fairly even battles so long as their skill level is within 3D-4D, and the battle would most likely be won by someone making a mistake (Wild Die Failure). An adjunct possibility would be to introduce Stamina rolls, with the difficulty increasing for every round that combat occurs, and a failed Stamina roll results in a penalty to whatever skill is being used in the duel.
EDIT: You could also alter the order of the list, so that Trick comes before Wound, and you could use the Trick as a set-up to immobilize your opponent or make him vulnerable for a coup de grace.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
So WEG essentially places a blanket restriction on a power just because the one time we see it used in that fashion, it's being used by a villain. Ridiculous. |
And i find it equally as rediculus, that CAUSE the only time we see it in the OT used, is by a baddie, that some feel, its ok for everyone to use it.
How many other films have we seen the goodies NOT use an obvious attack power, cause the baddies do and they don't want to be like the baddies??
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Of course, by that logic, you could get a DSP for wearing black.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | And i find it equally as rediculus, that CAUSE the only time we see it in the OT used, is by a baddie, that some feel, its ok for everyone to use it.
How many other films have we seen the goodies NOT use an obvious attack power, cause the baddies do and they don't want to be like the baddies?? |
I would agree for obvious attack powers like Force Lightning, but we also see Luke in ROTJ use a Force Choke attack on Gamorreans at Jabba's Palace. Per the RPG he gets a DSP, but why should he? If Luke, a Jedi Knight in all but name, is seen to use Force Choke in the films, is it not a logical assumption that the Force Power TK Kill as written does not accurately reflect the SWU as defined by the primary source (the films)? I submit that WEG may have been excessively restrictive in designing several Force powers that exist in an ethical gray area, ignored film evidence that would permit certain powers to be used without getting a DSP and made assumptions in the absence of evidence to similarly limit other powers. I can't say if their reasoning was an error or an active choice to balance the game and I'm rather tired of defending my POV on this matter, so I will just say that I feel there are some glaring inaccuracies and double standards in WEG's Force powers. My personal feeling is that the application of DSPs for TK in combat (as defined by Telekinesis and TK Kill) should be based on the circumstances and the result, not an arbitrary blanket ruling.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I would agree for obvious attack powers like Force Lightning |
I don't have any Jedi, but if I were GMing for one, I wouldn't even hand out DSPs for Force Lightning. The power itself doesn't matter to me. It's what you do with it. Force lightning is just a big, scary tazer when you get down to it. Would I give a DSP for tazing children for fun? Yes. Would I give a DSP for force-zapping a killer before he can murder someone? Certainly not.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I don't have any Jedi, but if I were GMing for one, I wouldn't even hand out DSPs for Force Lightning. The power itself doesn't matter to me. It's what you do with it. Force lightning is just a big, scary tazer when you get down to it. Would I give a DSP for tazing children for fun? Yes. Would I give a DSP for force-zapping a killer before he can murder someone? Certainly not. |
Hence the power Electric Judgement. Not sure how I feel about that one, but the power gamer in me likes the idea that my character could use Force Lightning without earning a DSP  Which is probably a good why it shouldn't be allowed...
If it were, though, with Electric Judgement already a part of the EU, I would recommend something along the lines of allowing the adept to avoid the DSP from Force Lightning by rolling Willpower at high difficulty to suppress the negative emotions from Force Lightning. And limit it to Stun damage only, in keeping with the Jedi Code...
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: |
I would agree for obvious attack powers like Force Lightning |
I don't have any Jedi, but if I were GMing for one, I wouldn't even hand out DSPs for Force Lightning. The power itself doesn't matter to me. It's what you do with it. Force lightning is just a big, scary tazer when you get down to it. Would I give a DSP for tazing children for fun? Yes. Would I give a DSP for force-zapping a killer before he can murder someone? Certainly not. |
The difference is that Force Lightning is specifically described as a manifestation of Dark Side energies, a conduit of aggression and hate. To bring it forth, you are drawing on the Dark Side of the Force, not a more general concept of it. To use it, no matter on whom, you are channeling the Dark Side... hence, a DSP.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Of course, by that logic, you could get a DSP for wearing black. |
Not really. Some of the jedi, do seem to be wearing black cloaks in the ATOC arena scene.
There was also a few 'red bladed' lightsabers in that arena as well, which has been traditionally associated with Sith/dark jedi.
| Quote: | | I can't say if their reasoning was an error or an active choice to balance the game |
I think it was done more for the latter, to help keep the game in a 'heroic' bent.
| Quote: | | If it were, though, with Electric Judgement already a part of the EU, I would recommend something along the lines of allowing the adept to avoid the DSP from Force Lightning by rolling Willpower at high difficulty to suppress the negative emotions from Force Lightning. And limit it to Stun damage only, in keeping with the Jedi Code... |
So if they fail the WP roll, it comes out as proper force lightning with the attendant DSP?
What if they don't have FL as a power?
| Quote: | | The difference is that Force Lightning is specifically described as a manifestation of Dark Side energies, a conduit of aggression and hate. To bring it forth, you are drawing on the Dark Side of the Force, not a more general concept of it. To use it, no matter on whom, you are channeling the Dark Side... hence, a DSP. |
Very true. There is also one power i made, which similarly to FL, draws fully on the negative emotions/hate, to cause a dark fire to blossom forth from within a target, burning them from the inside out..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | If it were, though, with Electric Judgement already a part of the EU, I would recommend something along the lines of allowing the adept to avoid the DSP from Force Lightning by rolling Willpower at high difficulty to suppress the negative emotions from Force Lightning. And limit it to Stun damage only, in keeping with the Jedi Code... |
So if they fail the WP roll, it comes out as proper force lightning with the attendant DSP?
What if they don't have FL as a power? |
Correct. The willpower roll represents the Jedi's ability to retain control over their negative emotions. IMO, the base Willpower difficulty should be set very high, with modifiers increasing in direct proportion to the Jedi's Alter skill, so that only Jedi who have put a lot of time and energy into mastering themselves can use this power safely; all others are in grave risk of falling to the Dark Side.
As far as FL as a power? Tough to say. In the description for Electric Judgment, it basically says that Plo Koon happened across the ability by accident, so I would probably allow it only where it was dramatically appropriate, using the rules in Tales of the Jedi for Jedi using powers they aren't trained in. Alternately, one could learn of this ability from a Jedi holocron (in the unlikely event that you could just find one).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Why would a holocron teach FL?? Or was you on about EJ?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Why would a holocron teach FL?? Or was you on about EJ? |
Electric Judgment. The Wookieepedia article states that the power was discovered by Plo Koon "by accident", but was judged to not be dark, despite its similarity to Force Lightning, so the council ordered him to record his discovery in a holocron.
My take on new Force powers is, if the description of a new Force power closely mimics an existing Force power, rather than making a new power; just add the new ability into the old power at higher difficulty, or with appropriate penalties. Morichro, for example, is remarkably similar to Place Another In Hibernation Trance, with the exception that Place Another can't be used against an unwilling subject. Rather than write up a completely separate power, just modify the power a little bit to include the ability to place an unwilling subject in a trance, at a difficulty increase of +10 to +15 or so.
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Electric Judgment, but it has been featured in multiple sources, so there is an obvious EU basis for it. In keeping with my preference for moding existing powers to fit with the EU material (Disclaimer: As I perceive it), I'd rather fold Force Lightning and Electric Judgment into a single power that requires a Light Side Force user to risk a DSP in some fashion if they use it, as well as correcting obvious discrepancies between Force Lightning as seen in the films and the RAW (as has already been discussed above).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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So on your alter-willpower..
Alter of user 1d-5d, willpower roll v.diff or results in dsp
Alter 5d-8d, willpower difficult or results in dsp.
Alter 8d-11d, willpower moderate
Alter 11d+, willpower roll easy.
Something like that?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | So on your alter-willpower..
Alter of user 1d-5d, willpower roll v.diff or results in dsp
Alter 5d-8d, willpower difficult or results in dsp.
Alter 8d-11d, willpower moderate
Alter 11d+, willpower roll easy.
Something like that? |
Actually, I was thinking the exact opposite, that the Willpower roll would be Difficult at an absolute minimum, then increase in difficulty in direct relation to how high the character's Alter skill is. The premise behind this, IMO, is that the more powerful one becomes in the Force, the stronger the Dark Side calls, and because summoning that kind of power gets easier and easier the more powerful one gets, so too would be the temptation to use it. A Jedi who wanted to use this power without gaining a DSP would need to boost his Willpower so that it is at least equal to either his Alter or his highest Force skill, maybe even 1D-2D higher.
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