| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: | | -The Executor: Film evidence shows that the ships is at least 10 times longer than an ISD, but WEG perpetuated the myth that it was only 5 times longer. |
Depends which source you go by. some have it at 8k, others at 16k..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | -The Executor: Film evidence shows that the ships is at least 10 times longer than an ISD, but WEG perpetuated the myth that it was only 5 times longer. |
Depends which source you go by. some have it at 8k, others at 16k.. |
There is a scene in ROTJ where an ISD is in close escort with the Executor, and happens to be casting a shadow on the Executor. Someone (I think it was Curtis Saxton of TheForce.net's Star Wars Technical Commentaries) used that shadow as the basis for a calculation to show that an SSD is actually around 11x longer than an ISD.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | You obviously aren't paying close enough attention. |
Really? Why again is that obvious? I must have missed that too.
| Quote: | | -TK Kill is a physical attack, so why is it resisted with Perception instead of Strength? |
It's a force attack, not a physical attack. It does damage to the body, but so does force lightning. Both are resisited with control or perception. I don't see that as obviously and uniquivocally wrong. Don't like it. Change it.
| Quote: | | -The RAW for Lightsaber Combat is limited strictly to lightsabers, so why is Luke seen to use Brawling mixed with Lightsaber on two separate occasions when, per the RAW, he would not receive the bonuses from Lightsaber Combat to his Brawling rolls? |
Cause the script said so? Maybe Lucas thought a reprise of the Black Knight scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail would be less dramatic than a kick? Even with your house rules Luke would still be stupid to use brawling when his skill is 3D lower with an unarmed than an armed skill. A better fix might be to allow for weaponed combat to include close quarters hits that result in a stun effect.
| Quote: | | -You can dice someone to pieces with a lightsaber, but knock someone out with a TK'd rock, and it's an automatic DSP, which flies in the face of the Jedi Code's respect for all life (inflicting permanent injury is fine, but knocking them out with no more consequence than a bad headache gets a DSP). |
Ah, this old chesnut. We never see the good guys in the OT hit the bad guys with TK. WEG is consistent with that and with deontological ethics. Don't like it? Adopt utilitarian ethics. John Stuart Mill has a nice essay. http://www.efm.bris.ac.uk/het/mill/utilitarianism.pdf 
| Quote: | | -The Executor: Film evidence shows that the ships is at least 10 times longer than an ISD, but WEG perpetuated the myth that it was only 5 times longer. |
Some guy on a web page looking at shadows gets a different answer for size in 1996 and WEG should have known that back in the 1980s. OK.
| Quote: | | -The Strike Cruiser: It's description says that its modular nature makes it vulnerable to attack, and yet it has a Hull of 6D, making it even tougher than the Victory Star Destroyer. |
Yep. Capital ship stats are messed up. They work good wrt starfighters but not other capital ships. But the rules as originally conceived weren't designed to simulate fleet battles. You are right, WEG never fixed that. But the fact that a RPG designed for PCs activities doesn't simulate fleet/army tactics well is hardly unique to WEG.
| Quote: | | -Luke vs. Vader in ROTJ. Nothing in the film or the novel indicates that this is anything other than an even fight, which Luke eventually won, so why does Vader have a combined Lightsaber Combat stat of 24D, almost 8D more than Luke's 16D+1. If one were to use those stats to duplicate the Battle of Endor, Vader would've been rolling an average of 27 points higher than Luke on every roll. |
If you think nothing in the film shows Vader holding back, then you didn't see the same film I saw. He clearly pauses to talk at several points rather than following up an obvious advantage. BTW, it's not really dramatically very interesting if, when the hero finally confronts the villain face to face for the first time they are really actually equally matched. That is usually saved for a rematch.
I am well aware that the WEG rules have inconsistencies. I don't find that shocking since in the 37 years I've been roleplaying I have yet to find one system without inconsistencies. WEG does a good job of simulating the feel of the original movies. Is it perfect? No. Have I seen a system that does a better job? Not yet. WEG is out of business. Lamenting the flaws of the system on the Star Wars D6 forum seems futile at best.
I merely note in passing that the Star Wars Extended Universe is internally quite inconsistent. For reasons I fail to understand this either doesn't bother you or escapes your notice while WEG's flaws really get your ire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What gets my ire is that, with the obvious inconsistencies that are rife in the entire canon and EU, for some reason, certain people seem to behave as though the WEG material is somehow considered sacrosanct and treated as if the entire EU should conform itself to WEG's rules. Never mind that WEG has contributed more than its fair share of said inconsistencies, since WEG product was used as source material for most of the first wave of EU novels. WEG is not the ultimate source of all SWU knowledge; the fact that I enjoy their gaming system doesn't change the fact that I see a lot of obvious screw-ups and things that need to be changed to better fit the EU. If you want to tie yourself down by saying "This is the way we've always done things", good luck with that.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | It's a force attack, not a physical attack. It does damage to the body, but so does force lightning. Both are resisited with control or perception. |
The crucial point is that it generates a physical effect. If it causes physical damage, it should be resisted by Strength. What good would Perception do? Roll high enough and you notice that they aren't actually choking you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdQqjcsfC8
| Quote: | | I don't see that as obviously and uniquivocally wrong. Don't like it. Change it. |
Why thank you for your permission. I think I'll do that. And I won't stop there.
| Quote: | | Cause the script said so? Maybe Lucas thought a reprise of the Black Knight scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail would be less dramatic than a kick? |
Key point here. Something that obviously occurs in the movie is excluded in the RAW of a game based on the movie. For accuracy's sake, the game should be modified to fit the film, not the other way around.
| Quote: | | Even with your house rules Luke would still be stupid to use brawling when his skill is 3D lower with an unarmed than an armed skill. A better fix might be to allow for weaponed combat to include close quarters hits that result in a stun effect. |
I'm working on Advanced skill versions of the seven Lightsaber Forms that will allow that or something like it. The key would be that the advanced forms would include Brawling as a prerequisite and would allow the Jedi to add his advanced form dice to Lightsaber or Brawling, depending on the circumstances.
| Quote: | | Ah, this old chesnut. We never see the good guys in the OT hit the bad guys with TK. |
So WEG essentially places a blanket restriction on a power just because the one time we see it used in that fashion, it's being used by a villain. Ridiculous.
| Quote: | | Some guy on a web page looking at shadows gets a different answer for size in 1996 and WEG should have known that back in the 1980s. OK. |
I noticed the discrepancy the first time I read the Imperial Sourcebook back in the late 80's, and I was barely out of Junior High School. It wasn't too hard to look at the screen shots in ESB and notice that "that's more than 5x the size of an ISD." Whether WEG got lazy or just didn't care, the fact remains that is it an obvious error.
| Quote: | | If you think nothing in the film shows Vader holding back, then you didn't see the same film I saw. He clearly pauses to talk at several points rather than following up an obvious advantage. BTW, it's not really dramatically very interesting if, when the hero finally confronts the villain face to face for the first time they are really actually equally matched. That is usually saved for a rematch. |
You're right. Apparently, you were watching ESB while I was watching ROTJ. You know, the one where Luke actually beats him, in spite of WEG's 7D+2 stat disparity?
| Quote: | | I am well aware that the WEG rules have inconsistencies. I don't find that shocking since in the 37 years I've been roleplaying I have yet to find one system without inconsistencies. WEG does a good job of simulating the feel of the original movies. Is it perfect? No. Have I seen a system that does a better job? Not yet. WEG is out of business. Lamenting the flaws of the system on the Star Wars D6 forum seems futile at best. |
Because discussing the failures in the company of your peers is a great way to decide whether or not you should continue to live with those failures or create new rules that better reflect the in-universe reality as you see it. And if you see a need for change, even if no one else agrees, go for it. Better that than becoming a dogmatic WEG apologist who doesn't want to change anything because "it's good enough the way it is."
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | Because discussing the failures in the company of your peers is a great way to decide whether or not you should continue to live with those failures or create new rules that better reflect the in-universe reality as you see it. And if you see a need for change, even if no one else agrees, go for it. Better that than becoming a dogmatic WEG apologist who doesn't want to change anything because "it's good enough the way it is." |
I think you've cornered the market on dogmatic and your repeated lashing out at anyone who disagrees with your personal interpretation of the films, adherence to cannon, and purpose to the WEG rules speaks for itself. Perhaps you think that behavior makes your points more compelling. It does not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh, please. If being dogmatic is (as Merriam-Webster defines it) expressing an opinion very strongly as if it were fact, then we are all guilty of it here. I recall posting a stat for a starfighter a while back where you and I went round and round over what equipment should or should not be allowed to be fitted to the craft, and both of our arguments were based solely on our own interpretations of what we saw to be fact in the SWU. That didn't stop you from arguing with me about it then, and it hasn't stopped you from going twelve rounds with me on a dozen different subjects, all based on our own opinions. Yes, I defend my points strongly, but for you to deride me for it while you defend your points just as adamantly is an indictment of your argument style as much as my own.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | Oh, please. If being dogmatic is (as Merriam-Webster defines it) expressing an opinion very strongly as if it were fact, then we are all guilty of it here. I recall posting a stat for a starfighter a while back where you and I went round and round over what equipment should or should not be allowed to be fitted to the craft, and both of our arguments were based solely on our own interpretations of what we saw to be fact in the SWU. That didn't stop you from arguing with me about it then, and it hasn't stopped you from going twelve rounds with me on a dozen different subjects, all based on our own opinions. Yes, I defend my points strongly, but for you to deride me for it while you defend your points just as adamantly is an indictment of your argument style as much as my own. |
You accuse me of being a dogmatic WEG apologist who isn't paying enough attention to notice the rules inconsistencies of the system, but you then become all offended when in response I tell you that you are dogmatic?
Gee, I really don't know what to say. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Did I accuse you? I seem to recall making a general statement to the effect that changing rules as needed was a better alternative than adhering to blind doctrine but I never named names.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | Did I accuse you? I seem to recall making a general statement to the effect that changing rules as needed was a better alternative than adhering to blind doctrine but I never named names. |
Yes.
| crmcneill at Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:31 pm wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I am well aware that the WEG rules have inconsistencies. I don't find that shocking since in the 37 years I've been roleplaying I have yet to find one system without inconsistencies. WEG does a good job of simulating the feel of the original movies. Is it perfect? No. Have I seen a system that does a better job? Not yet. WEG is out of business. Lamenting the flaws of the system on the Star Wars D6 forum seems futile at best. |
Because discussing the failures in the company of your peers is a great way to decide whether or not you should continue to live with those failures or create new rules that better reflect the in-universe reality as you see it. And if you see a need for change, even if no one else agrees, go for it. Better that than becoming a dogmatic WEG apologist who doesn't want to change anything because "it's good enough the way it is." |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And where exactly did I specifically apply the label to you? You really are reading too much into this, Bren.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | And where exactly did I specifically apply the label to you? You really are reading too much into this, Bren. |
Funny, I suspected you were going to go with the weasely "oh I didn't mean you in particular" approach even though the statement was the conclusion of your long post directly replying to eight separately listed quotes by me.
But you have finally convinced me that you are correct about one thing. I have certainly been reading too much into your writing. And when I say "you" and "your" I mean crmcneill. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C'mon guys, knock it off. The threads gone WAY off track.
_________________
Hotaru no Hishou; a messageboard about games, friends and nothing at all.
Donate to Ankhanu Press |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
<shrug> Fine by me
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ankhanu wrote: | | C'mon guys, knock it off. The threads gone WAY off track. |
Fair point. Sorry Ankhanu.
To return to your earlier topic.
| Ankhanu wrote: | | I've never been keen on the Dueling Blades system, nor the derivatives I've seen. The mechanics aren't very d6 to me; while they do add certain dimensions to combat, it mutates the game experience to something... other, imo. |
I like the fact that Dueling Blades attempts to allow lightsaber duels to occur in a cinematic fashion that lasts more than one round. But I agree that something just feels off to the system.
The problem I see Dueling Blades as trying to address is that with the RAW lightsabers do so much damage in the hands of an experienced force user that no PC or NPC can really afford to allow their opponent to succeed in a strike. This tends to make at least one opponent choose to use a FP immediately to double thier skills and attributes. But as soon as one character uses (or might use) a FP the other must also use a FP or forfeit the duel (by bisection or decapitation).
Once a FP is used that magnifies any difference in ability between the characters which, again, is likely to result in an instant kill.
What is needed is a system that makes combat interesting and something other than single round instant kills.
Thoughts on how to better address this? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
