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Alternate Coordination Bonus Chart
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:51 pm    Post subject: Alternate Coordination Bonus Chart Reply with quote

I can't recall if I've posted this before, so, just in case...

The 1E and 2R&E rules used a simple coordination method where every additional person / weapon coordinating adds +1 pip to the base dice roll. While this method works fine for relatively small numbers, it starts to fall apart as the numbers increase. Taken to extremes, the Death Star would be destroyed by the combined fire of a battalion of stormtroopers (850 or so blaster rifles).

2E took a slightly different route and used a non-arithmetic method, where the numbers required to achieve the next #D in bonus dice came at a higher cost in required numbers, but there was no readily discernable pattern in how the required numbers scaled up.

A while back, atgxtg (IIRC) mentioned an alternate method, whereby every time you doubled the number of people coordinating, the bonus increased by +1D. He attributed it to me, even though it was the first time I'd heard of it. However, I liked the idea behind it, in that it allowed bonuses to scale up relatively quickly at low levels, but then sloped off as the numbers increased, much like the 2E rules, but following a mathematical progression. The basic chart looks something like so:
    # Coordinated = Bonus

    2 = +1D
    4 = +2D
    8 = +3D
    16 = +4D
    32 = +5D
    64 = +6D
    128 = +7D
    256 = +8D
    512 = +9D
    1,024 = +10D
    2,048 = +11D
    4,096 = +12D
    8,192 = +13D
    16,384 = +14D

For those who want to get really particular, I also broke down the gaps between the full +1D values by thirds to generate #D+# bonuses, like so:
    # Coordinating = Bonus

    1 = 0D
    2 = +1D
    3 = +1D+2
    4 = +2D
    5-6 = +2D+1
    7 = +2D+2
    8-10 = +3D
    11-13 = +3D+1
    14-15 = +3D+2
    16-21 = +4D
    22-26 = +4D+1
    27-31 = +4D+2
    32-43 = +5D
    44-53 = +5D+1
    54-63 = +5D+2
    64-85 = +6D
    86-106 = +6D+1
    107-127 = +6D+2
    128-170 = +7D
    171-213 = +7D+1
    214-255 = +7D+2
    256-341 = +8D
    342-426 = +8D+1
    427-511 = +8D+2
    512-682 = +9D
    683-852 = +9D+1
    854-1023 = +9D+2
    1024-1365 = +10D
    1366-1706 = +10D+1
    1707-2047 = +10D+2
    2048-2730 = +11D
    2731-3413 = +11D+1
    3414-4095 = +11D+2
    4096-5461 = +12D
    5462-6826 = +12D+1
    6827-8191 = +12D+2
    8192-10922 = +13D
    10923-13653 = +13D+1
    13654-16383 = +13D+2
    16384 = +14D

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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Savar
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, their is president of fire linked for every doubling 1D
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's kind of similar to how 2e base had it, where it went
2 = +1d
4 = +2d
6 = +3d
10 = +4d
15 = +5d
25 = +6d and so on..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
It's kind of similar to how 2e base had it, where it went
2 = +1d
4 = +2d
6 = +3d
10 = +4d
15 = +5d
25 = +6d and so on..

That's actually the first few lines of the 2E method.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like i said, your double of the double, is rather similar..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Like i said, your double of the double, is rather similar..

It is, but with the math using a more logical progression. The Sparks version (i'm guessing) uses the following progression, which is the version posted in the 2E Rulebook:
    2 = +1D
    4 = +2D
    6 = +3D
    10 = +4D
    15 = +5D
    25 = +6D
    40 = +7D
    60 = +8D
    100 = +9D
    150 = +10D
    250 = +11D
    400 = +12D
    600 = +13D
    1000 = +14D
    1500 = +15D

While that progression does require more and more people being coordinated as it slopes up, the slope does not increase in a set pattern:
    +2
    +2
    +4
    +5
    +10
    +15
    +20
    +40
    +50
    +100
    +150
    +200
    +400
    +500

When you compare the degree of increase against the degree of increase from the previous step, you get the following:
    +0
    +2
    +1
    +5
    +5
    +5
    +20
    +10
    +50
    +50
    +50
    +200
    +100

So, while the rate of increase does slope up, it does so unevenly, with two separate plateaus, as well as three separate decreases in the rate. My version is a straight x2 progression, where the number being coordinated required to achieve the next +1D of bonus doubles at every step.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like patterns.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Like i said, your double of the double, is rather similar..

It is, but with the math using a more logical progression. The Sparks version (i'm guessing) uses the following progression, which is the version posted in the 2E Rulebook

So, while the rate of increase does slope up, it does so unevenly, with two separate plateaus, as well as three separate decreases in the rate. My version is a straight x2 progression, where the number being coordinated required to achieve the next +1D of bonus doubles at every step.


Yup. We use the base 2e chart for that.
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Ning Leihrec
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is great. I was fooling around with this recently on the forums too. I was focused mainly on revising the difficulty to command coordinated actions, but this breakdown of bonuses is way cleaner than mine. Thanks
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill

You mentioned that 850 storm troopers could combine fire to destroy the Deathstar, but I think that might be a rather dubious justification for knocking the RAW (not that I am particularly attached to the RAW).

It is impossible, per RAW, for 850 storm troopers to coordinate or to be coordinated in any case, unless there is some commander who has 850D in command. Even the emperor tops out at, IIRC, 13D or so, and that is for his specialization of imperial troops.

In any case, I think something like this is a great representation of the reality of diminishing returns, though how a commander would coordinate 16,000 subordinates (with out a retooling of the rule itself) is beyond me... Shocked


Last edited by Naaman on Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
You mentioned that 850 storm troopers could combine fire to destroy the Deathstar, but I think that might be a rather dubious justification for knocking the RAW (not that I am particularly attached to the RAW).

It is impossible, per RAW, for 850 storm troopers to coordinate or to be coordinated in any case, unless there is some commander who has 850D in command. Even the emperor tops out at, IIRC, 13D or so, and that is for his specialization of imperial troops.

It is something of a reduction absurdum, but under 1E rules, stormtroopers could combine fire for free with no maximum limit. As such, 850 blaster rifles fired at the same target simultaneously results in a coordination bonus of +283D+1. No, that is not a typo.

As I said before, the coordination rules work fine for small groups, but become more and more unrealistic as the group size increases. A less extreme example is that, under the coordination rules, the Super Star Destroyer renders the Death Star's superlaser irrelevant. Since capital ships are treated as individual units (I.e. per the RAW, one person controls the ship, and does not have to make a Command check to coordinate the crew), it can combine weapons for free. With 100 10D Heavy Turbolaser in the forward fire arc, it can do 43D+1 Capital-Scale damage, compared to the maximum 28D Capital-Scale damage inflicted by the Death Star (16D maximum damage, plus 12D Scale modifier).

However, using my doubling method, it would take the combined firepower of over 5,200 Super Star Destroyers to match the damage of one max-power shot from the Death Star's Superlaser:
    Superlaser @ max power = 28D Capital Scale

    Heavy Turbolaser = 10D Capital Scale

    Difference = 18D

    Assuming 1D = x2, then 2 X 2^18 = 524288, which is how many heavy turbolasers it would take to generate a +18D bonus. Divide that by 100 (the number of heavy turbolasers in an SSD's forward fire arc) and you end up with 5,243 (rounded up from 5,242.88 ).


Quote:
In any case, I think something like this is a great representation of the reality of diminishing returns, though how a commander would coordinate 16,000 subordinates (with out a retooling of the rule itself) is beyond me... Shocked

One possibility would be to add a house rule, so that, for every 1D in Command, you can command an organizational layer, so that an infantry lieutenant with a Command of 3D in command of a platoon can command three organizational layers down (squads, fire teams and individuals). That's as far as I got with it.

Alternately, you could just use my doubling method to generate maximums as well, as in "for every 1D in Command, the number of individuals that character can Command doubles."
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
crmcniel

"I" before "E", except after " crmcn", please. Wink
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, as part of my re-stat project, when a ship like an ISD or a MC80 has multiple cannon in a fire arc, I'm going to include a Coordination bonus in the weapon stat for each arc to make it easier for GMs to know how much of a Coordination bonus they have to work with.

For example, an ISD's turbolasers would look like so:
    60 Turbolaser Batteries
    Fire Arc: 20 Front (+4D), 20 Left (+4D), 20 Right (+4D)
The dice values would be treated as a Dice Pool allocated between Damage and Fire Control, which IMO is far easier for combat purposes.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
So, as part of my re-stat project, when a ship like an ISD or a MC80 has multiple cannon in a fire arc, I'm going to include a Coordination bonus in the weapon stat for each arc to make it easier for GMs to know how much of a Coordination bonus they have to work with.

For example, an ISD's turbolasers would look like so:
    60 Turbolaser Batteries
    Fire Arc: 20 Front (+4D), 20 Left (+4D), 20 Right (+4D)
The dice values would be treated as a Dice Pool allocated between Damage and Fire Control, which IMO is far easier for combat purposes.


This is something that I've had to do by hand before, and I really appreciate you taking the time to add that in.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that 20 guns +4d is only if all fire at once at one target..

I've played some games where ony a portion of the guns in an arc target one ship, another portion targets a 2nd and so on.
BUT i agree, good work.
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