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cheshire
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 Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:38 am Post subject: Re: re: possible alternate lightsaber combat rules |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | your reply comes across as self-centered, as if your ideas are the only ones worth discussing. |
I disagree, but we're all welcome to our own opinions. Bobmalooga's idea of reverting to 1E rules obviously works for him, but it isn't what I'm looking for, as evidenced by the work I put into the original post. Put simply, I have an idea that I would like feedback on, and being told to simply drop the idea and revert to a rule which I have already rejected as insufficient for my purposes, while being feedback, is not the kind of feedback I am looking for. Apologies for the confusion; I will be more careful selecting my topic subjects in the future. |
I think what is closer to the matter at hand is that your reply to Bobmalooga came across as dismissive. The subtext of Bobmalooga's reply seems to indicate that he did not receive the reply well. Whether there is self-centered-ness at the heart of the issue or not is indeed a matter of either opinion or free therapy.
One way or the other, it may be best to simply reflect on why two independent individuals would react negatively to a post that unintentionally came across as dismissive, and craft future posts accordingly.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="crmcneill"] | garhkal wrote: | Being MAPS should be forcing that control rating down, No.
That jedi with 6d control, is already at a 1d penalty JUST for having LS combat up, so taking a swing should make it 2d off (2 actions for keeping LS combat up, and a third for making an attack).. |
Okay, 9D then. This raises a couple questions...
1) Why are you okay with 9D per slice, but not 10D? | crmcneill wrote: | you even GET a jedi only taking 1 action in a round on top of maintaining his LS combat. 2-3 parries, 2-3 attacks, movement.. All add up. So lets take Jim-bob vs Sithy slik.. Both have 3 troops with them
Jim bob has a 6d Ls skill, 6d control and 6d sense.
Slik has 7d/7d/6d respectively.
Sithy slik's troops only have blasters, so Jim-bob is only needing to make 2 parries (one vs ranged blaster and one vs the LS of slik).
So bob has 2 actions base (LS combat), 1 action to attack slik and 2 actions to parry. So even with 6d in control, his MAPS add up to 4d off, so he is only adding 2d to his 5d damage Lightsaber.
Now Jim-bob's troops have 1 melee specialist (vibro-axe), one brawler and one blaster guy. Each attack slik along with jim-bob.. So now Slik is having to make 4 parries for 4 actions, and 2 for keeping up LS combat. So he is at 6d off right there, even if he is only doing ONE counter attack. So his 7d gets dropped to 1d..
[quote="crmcneill"]2) Are lightsaber armed characters with 5D Dex so common in your SWU that this would be a serious issue? They certainly aren't in mine... |
3d Dex is average for PCs, so with Enhanced attribute it can easily get pushed to 5d.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:42 am Post subject: |
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You might want to go back and edit your post...
| garhkal wrote: | | you even GET a jedi only taking 1 action in a round on top of maintaining his LS combat. 2-3 parries, 2-3 attacks, movement. |
You do if you use the Dueling Blades rules, where a single Lightsaber roll represents an entire round of combat, as opposed to the rather monotonous swing and parry of the RAW.
And don't go changing the subject by stacking a scenario with MAPs. In a one-on-one duel, even with LS Combat up, that 6D Control Jedi will still be hitting for 9D damage on a single blow. Why is that acceptable, but 10D isn't?
What I'm trying to do here is make the lightsaber's damage potential less dependent on the Jedi. Like I said in the original post, WEG made the lightsaber into a near-mystical talisman by tying much of its capability into the Force skills of the Jedi wielding it. I'm not just bumping the lightsaber's damage up; I'm removing Lightsaber Combat completely: no more adding Control dice to damage. There will still be rules to reduce or increase damage, but the base damage for a Lightsaber will pretty much be capped around Dex+5D.
| Quote: | | 3d Dex is average for PCs, so with Enhanced attribute it can easily get pushed to 5d. |
So, on top of all the MAPs your Jedi racked up in the above example, you're worried about him having enough left over to pull off Enhance Attribute, too?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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^^^^ 
Interesting: so why does only control get penalized for every action but not sense? The way that G is interpreting it, the Jedi should lose 2D per action to his lightsaber attacks, since both sense and ligjtsaber skills should suffer the penalty.
I rather interpret the RAW to mean that once the bonus is added, it stays static regardless of the number of actions. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Cause it makes sense that if your control for damage is MAP'ed, so too should the Sense to attack/parry.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Not exactly. If you keep penalizing control more for each additional action (thus reducing the bonus to damage), then it follows that sense should also be penalized (thus reducing the bonus to skill. Finally, each attack with a lightsaber counts as an action, so the lightsaber skill is also reduced by 1D.
Therefore, each attack you ttake with your lightsaber--according to your interprtation--not only suffers its own MAPs, but it imposes additional MAPs on the bonuses applied from the power.
I dont see it that way, though. Once LSC is up, you deal the same damag with the lightsaber regardles of how many actions you take, but the actions themselves o.ly suffer a 1D MAP per action (instead of a 1D map to lightsaber AND a 1D MAP to sense). |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Another wrinkle is that Lightsaber Combat specifies the user may add his Sense and Control dice to his Lightsaber skill and damage, but doesn't specify whether it is the modified or unmodified Sense and Control dice (with respect to MAPs).
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: Re: A Dead Horse Named Lightsaber Combat |
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| crmcneill wrote: | So, I had a brainstorm recently regarding lightsaber combat. I know this topic comes up with semi-regularity around here, but it turns out that you can actually beat a dead horse if you roll high enough...
I've been playing around with the idea of dropping Lightsaber Combat completely as a Force power, and folding all of its essentials into an upgraded version of Combat Sense, with the Combat Sense bonus based on your skill level at the combat skill you were using. However, the method for generating the base bonus was extremely crunchy, and I couldn't really find a way to make it simpler.
A big part of my problem is that, in the films, the Jedi is connected to the Force at all times, allowing it to control his actions and obey his commands. Unfortunately, under the WEG rules, the lightsaber is almost a mystical talisman, in that the Jedi's combat skills shoot through the roof so long as he is using Lightsaber Combat (or one of the home-brewed Jedi Weapon powers). IMO, a Jedi would benefit just as much from the Force's guidance if fighting unarmed or using a blaster or a more mundane melee weapon; the lightsaber is just the skill into which he puts the majority of his skill dice.
So, here's what I'm thinking:1) Remove Lightsaber Combat completely, folding the ability to parry blaster bolts into Combat Sense. Combat Sense can now be kept up (no 10 round limit), but would keep the +3 Difficulty modifier for every additional opponent defending against.
2) Add a sliding bonus to Combat Sense, so that rather than a flat +2D bonus, there is an additional bonus based on how well the character rolled Sense to bring up Combat Sense, similar to Enhance Attribute. For example, a Jedi rolling 6D Sense to bring up Combat Sense (at Moderate) rolls a 21, beating the Difficulty by 6 points. For every 2 points of success, add 1 pip to the bonus (6 / 2 = 3 pips = 1D), added to the base bonus of +2D for a total of +3D.
3) Since getting rid of Lightsaber Combat also removes adding the Jedi's Control dice to Damage, something needs to be done to bring the lightsaber's damage potential back up. In the past, I have suggested converting lightsaber damage to Str+5D, but that brought garhkal out swinging with the reducto ad wookieeum argument (a 5D Str Wookiee inflicting as much damage as a thermal detonator with every swing). However, an alternate possibility recently occurred to me; seeing as how lightsabers can cut through pretty much anything, the degree of damage would be enhanced more by how accurately the blow can be placed than the force of the swing behind the blow. As such, I propose making the Lightsaber's Damage: Dex+5D, rather than basing it on Strength.
4) Some variation on the RoE Optional Damage rules, where the Jedi gets a damage bonus to his lightsaber based on how well he rolled to hit (such as +1 per 3 points of success).
5) As evidenced by Qui-Gon vs. the Blast Door in E1, lightsabers obviously have the ability to inflict continuous damage over the course of multiple rounds. To represent this, I would allow Lightsaber to inflict an additional +1D damage every time the number of consecutive rounds on the attack doubles (to keep the damage bonus from scaling up too fast). Example: Jedi hits a blast door with his Lightsaber for 8D damage, but the blast door is strong enough to resist. Next round, the Jedi adds +1D to his damage for 9D. There is no additional bonus in the third round, but in the fourth round, the damage goes up another +1D to 10D (4 rounds is 2x 2 rounds). No more bonuses would accrue until the 8th round (2x 4 rounds), and so on and so forth... |
1. I agree on the principle. We used a slightly different force system (keeping Powers 'up').
2. If you adopt 1, you also need this...
3. Id go for a fixed high damage given the nature of the weapon. say 8D for example.
4. We already have bonus damage for Rolling over the required to hit number for all weapons in our games.
5. I usually solve that situation narratively, but Id go for your system if I wanted to roll Dice.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of people like to use 8D for lightsaber damage. Seems like the "popular" die code for a LSC houserule.
I rather like adding control, since it facilitates the Jedi's relationship with his lightsaber (which seems to be a theme in the Star Wars/Jedi mythos). Having a "set damage" makes it so that anyone can be just a deadly with a lightsaber, regardless of their attunent to the weapon or to the combat philosophy of the Jedi/Sith. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: A Dead Horse Named Lightsaber Combat |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | 1. I agree on the principle. We used a slightly different force system (keeping Powers 'up').
2. If you adopt 1, you also need this...
3. Id go for a fixed high damage given the nature of the weapon. say 8D for example.
4. We already have bonus damage for Rolling over the required to hit number for all weapons in our games.
5. I usually solve that situation narratively, but Id go for your system if I wanted to roll Dice. |
Welcome back, Z!
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: A Dead Horse Named Lightsaber Combat |
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| Whill wrote: | | Welcome back, Z! |
Seconded. Always nice to see a long-absent member turn up again. You have been missed, Z.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | A lot of people like to use 8D for lightsaber damage. Seems like the "popular" die code for a LSC houserule.
I rather like adding control, since it facilitates the Jedi's relationship with his lightsaber (which seems to be a theme in the Star Wars/Jedi mythos). Having a "set damage" makes it so that anyone can be just a deadly with a lightsaber, regardless of their attunent to the weapon or to the combat philosophy of the Jedi/Sith. |
Given the difficulty factor and the absence of the LS skill anyone cant be as deadly...
Id rather have the 'attunement' work with the combat skills rather than the damage, but each to their own.. 
And hi again everyone! No rpg:s for a while and new relationship meaning more cuddling in the sofa..
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dicemauler
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Could you add the +2D bonus from Combat Sense to the lightsaber damage and then further add on to that similar to the sliding bonus you suggested to mimic Enhance Attribute? |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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My biggest concern is not so much balance, but rather replicating what the films portray a lightsaber to be. It cuts through flesh as easily as air and can slice through reinforced armored bulkheads like they arent even there. There are a few inconsistencies such as Dooku "nicking" Obi-Wan and Darth Maul scraping the ledge from which ObiWan was hanging, but those are supported by the Jesi's ability to willingly reduce the damage.
Generally speaking, the first hit with a lightsaber ends the fight, so I'd almost be willing to not even require a Jedi to roll damage if he hits.... except that there is somr satisfaction in rolling two handfulls of dice when you finally land that hit in the BBEG and know that his paltry 3D+1 Strengh and +1D energy armor is worthless to resist. |
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