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What Star Wars novels have you read? Liked?
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: What adult Star Wars novels have you read? Liked? Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:


Most of this stuff is why I took the attitude that the EU was basically anywhere from garbage to mediocre at best, with only the Thrawn Trilogy as a true stand-out. I was perfectly happy when Disney chucked the whole thing out, and even happier when I saw Disney continue to turn to the WEG sourcebooks for background material (because you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater).

.


Preach on brother!! My sentiments exactly.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
"Mary Sue" is generally Batman in a dress.

Batman is more than angsty. Batman suffers from severe trauma and has deep psychological issues.


The real issue, in my opinion, is not "Is he flawed," but rather "Do the flaws matter for narrative purposes."

Like, Wesley Crusher -- boy genius -- may have the critical flaw of having really bad foot odor, but it doesn't matter if he never takes off his shoes, and meanwhile the adults all defer to his genius and let him be involved in crap that he has no business being involved in because he's a proxy for a young Gene Rodenberry.

A character's flaws need to be genuine barriers for them to surpass. With Rey, I'd guess that the trauma she suffered at an early age will make her possibly prone to lashing out in anger or fear if she's not careful. Or it may make her bond overly quickly with people, which ends up used against her. Or who knows.

And it's not just a matter of having flaws that matter. The amazing abilities, gifted qualities, etc., need to be serving a purpose beyond just "Get out of dilemmas for free." There needs to be a larger narrative purpose that is part of a compelling story overall.


The ultimate issue is that a Mary Sue is the antithesis of a hero. A hero earns their triumphs; they must struggle to succeed, and the audience needs to recognize that struggle. A hero who just pulls out a random power or suddenly is imbued with special abilities at a plot critical moment isn't a hero at all -- they're a Mary Sue: a character with unearned greatness.

But a hero can be incredibly powerful and still have earned that power, or have that power granted to them in a way that is still meaningful and heroic. If Rey, for example, is a vessel for a far more active Force, then that fact alone may be the hurdle she has to overcome. Sure, she may be able to beat another more experienced Force wielder...but at what cost to herself?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Bren wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
But Bren, her ability with melee weapons was already foreshadowed when we see how handy she is with that staff of hers.
So the masterless Rey is not only a Force prodigy but also a combat prodigy? I'm still unconvinced.


Not a combat prodigy per se, but she was forced to live alone on a planet of scavengers who would steal anything she had if they got the opportunity, so she taught herself self-defense. It makes perfect sense.


And her earliest memory seems to be being left on Jakku as an eight year old*, so there are several years in which she could have had combat and Force basics laid down, before they were wiped away by trauma or hidden from her by Force mind-f***.

*Roughly; the actress who played her was 8, which might make her as old as 10ish, or as young as sixish.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Bren wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
But Bren, her ability with melee weapons was already foreshadowed when we see how handy she is with that staff of hers.
So the masterless Rey is not only a Force prodigy but also a combat prodigy? I'm still unconvinced.


Not a combat prodigy per se, but she was forced to live alone on a planet of scavengers who would steal anything she had if they got the opportunity, so she taught herself self-defense. It makes perfect sense.


And her earliest memory seems to be being left on Jakku as an eight year old*, so there are several years in which she could have had combat and Force basics laid down, before they were wiped away by trauma or hidden from her by Force mind-f***.

*Roughly; the actress who played her was 8, which might make her as old as 10ish, or as young as sixish.


Yeah, I always thought it odd that Rey was abandoned on Jakku at the age of somewhere between 5 and 8 years old but we never see a hint that she remembers what her parents/family even look like while she seems like she would be more than old enough to remember, even at that young age. It seems that Jyn Erso was roughly around the same age as Rey was when she was effectively orphaned by the death of her mother and the capture of her father, and Jyn has no problem remembering who her parents were.

It gets even more interesting in the TFA novelization (or so I'm told, as I haven't read it for myself but I remember being told this) when Rey approaches Luke on Ahch-To and Luke immediately recognizes her. Which means that Luke knows who Rey is because they've met before and Rey was (probably) too young to remember it.

In one of the Rogue One special features, someone discusses how in the main Skywalker Saga, most of the heroes (namely, Luke, Leia, Finn and Rey) don't know their own parents, so they have to go on a journey of self-discovery to find out where they came from. But Jyn is different because she knows who her parents are. In fact, it's her witnessing her parents being taken from her that most contributes to her personality and sense of self. What makes this weird is that Rey and Jyn were (effectively) orphaned at roughly the same age, but Jyn remembers her parents while (it's hinted that) Rey doesn't.

Curiouser and curiouser...
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of that, however, can be blamed on JJ's obsession with the "mystery box" concept -- something that I've grown increasingly tired of.

It's fine for the hero to have a secret, especially one that suggests a flaw or which is used against them. Luke being Vader's son, for example, is a good one.

In recent years, however, pop culture has grown to fetishize the notion of the "mystery" to the point where storytellers will come up with the question without ever having an answer, and/or where they DO have the answer, but then feel compelled to change the answer if the audience figures it out if only to preserve the surprise of the "big reveal."

"Mr. Jenkins?!?!"

"Yeah, and I would've gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you nosy kids and your dog!"
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
"Yeah, and I would've gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you nosy kids and your dog!"


Technically, it should be "meddling kids." I'm not sure if "your dog" should be changed to "your nosy dog" though. It's been decades since I've seen a Scooby-Doo cartoon.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Solo4114 wrote:
"Yeah, and I would've gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you nosy kids and your dog!"


Technically, it should be "meddling kids." I'm not sure if "your dog" should be changed to "your nosy dog" though. It's been decades since I've seen a Scooby-Doo cartoon.


Raggy? That you, Raggy? Ah-Hee-HEE-hee-ha-haawww.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ad res, I've been listening to Aftermath. It's taken a bit to grow on me... the last few I've been listening to have been straight reads, while this has a bit of a cast and sound effects... but I really got into the groove when I realized it sounded like an enthusiastic GM describing a gaming session.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been a while so thought i would update my listing..
So far my SW novel roster (that i've read) goes (in chronological order)
Cloak of deception
Phantom menace novelization
Rogue planet
Attack of the clones novelization
Revenge of the sith novelization
Han solo Trilogy (Paradise snare, hutt gambit, rebel dawn)
Tales from mos eisley cantina
Splinter of the mind's eye
Tales of the bounty hunters
Tales from jabba's palace
tales from the empire/new republic
bounty hunter wars (mando armor, slave ship, hard merchandise)
Truce at bacurra
Xwing, (rogue squadron, wedge's gambit, krytos trap, bacta war, Wraith squadron, Iron fist, Solo command)
Courtship of leia
Thrawn trilogy (heir to the empire, dark force rising, last command)
Xwing Isard's revenge
Jedi academy trilogy (jedi search, dark apprentice, champions of the force)
I Jedi
Children of the jedi-darksaber-planet of twilight
Xwing starfighter's of adumar
Crystal star
Black fleet crisis (before the storm, shield of lies, Tyrants test)
The New rebellion
Corellian trilogy (Ambush at corellia, assault at selonia, showdown at centerpoint)
Hand of thrawn duology (Spectre of the past, visions of the future)
Survivor's quest (though not sure if i actually read it yet or just have it)
All of the new jedi order saga (except the e-books)
The dark nest trilogy (joiner king, unseen queen, swarm war)
Legacy of the force saga (all)
I also have read all in the 'junior jedi knights' grouping of 11 books..
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pick one book as your favorite from your list.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Been a while so thought i would update my listing..
So far my SW novel roster (that i've read) goes (in chronological order)...

The Approaching Storm is animal attack after animal attack. It has almost nothing to do with Attack of the Clones. It's boring and pointless. And there's a danger sense issue with sentients you haven't gotten to yet.

My suggestion is to drop that immediately and instead read the Revenge of the Sith lead-in novel, Labyrinth of Evil by James Luceno. It is relevant to the films. It goes into how Dooku left the Jedi and became a Sith. It addresses some of the mystery brought up in AotC that was not dealt with in RotS, such as Master Sifo-Dyas ordering the clone army. It shows how Obi-Wan learns how to deactivate tractor beams! The final third of the novel is the first half of the Battle of Coruscant from the beginning of the movie. You get to see Grievous "kidnapping" Palpatine, and what Padme, Bail Organa and Mon Mothma do during the battle. You find out where Obi-Wan and Anakin were before they got to the battle at the beginning of the movie and why they had just gotten there.

It's a fun adventure and my favorite Star Wars novel.
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WillTasker
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
My suggestion is to drop that immediately and instead read the Revenge of the Sith lead-in novel, Labyrinth of Evil by James Luceno. It is relevant to the films. It goes into how Dooku left the Jedi and became a Sith. It addresses some of the mystery brought up in AotC that was not dealt with in RotS, such as Master Sifo-Dyas ordering the clone army. It shows how Obi-Wan learns how to deactivate tractor beams! The final third of the novel is the first half of the Battle of Coruscant from the beginning of the movie. You get to see Grievous "kidnapping" Palpatine, and what Padme, Bail Organa and Mon Mothma do during the battle. You find out where Obi-Wan and Anakin were before they got to the battle at the beginning of the movie and why they had just gotten there.

It's a fun adventure and my favorite Star Wars novel.


I'd heard good things about this one but never knew it had such close ties to Episode III. I'll have to take a look for it...
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding to this, specifically in the realm of comics. I read and enjoyed the following:

- Goodwin and Williamson's Star Wars comics (reprinted by Dark Horse as "Classic Star Wars"). Great space adventure feel to them, and I love the artwork.

- The old Tales of the Jedi comics from Dark Horse, starting with their first appearance in "Dark Horse Comics Presents" and running up through, I think, Dark Lords of the Sith or something like that. I didn't read past that, however.

- Crimson Empire. This was a shorter one, but still fun. I actually may not have finished it. It featured a former Imperial Guardsman on the run from the new Empire or the Remnant or something.

- The Thrawn Trilogy adaptations.

I also read Dark Empire and Dark Empire II, but while I liked them at the time they came out, I've found they don't hold up well. The dialogue is off, the art design is...weird...and although they introduce some interesting ideas, the resurrection of the Emperor through clones just bugs me. That, I think, was part of the bad aspects of the EU where it would tend to just recycle old villains and ideas (e.g. "More superweapons!") in ways that often felt pretty lame. Dark Empire falls into this category for me.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree about Dark Empire. I read it for the first time a couple of years ago--about a year or two before TFA came out. I loved it. I absolutely loved it, and today, it remains my favorite, ever, Star Wars comics (and there are some damn good ones out there).

I've since read Dark Empire a second time and then, last year, I listened to the dramatized recording of the story.

I think it is excellent, capturing the feel of the original trilogy brilliantly.





Another work I highly recommend is the Dark Times series. Excellent stuff.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My reaction to Dark Empire is...mixed. My reaction to Dark Empire paralells Solo4114's reaction. I remember enjoying them when they came out, but I agree with him that they haven't aged well. And while there are concepts in Dark Empire that I like very much, culminating perhaps with the Modular Taskforce Cruiser (seriously, the concept for that thing is logistical genius), it is, as Solo4114 said, just a continuation of the Legends continuity's obsessions with "More Superweapons" that got lampshaded by Han Solo in Star by Star.

Han Solo wrote:
"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander," Han said. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done.


Bonus points for this Han Solo rant also lampshading virtually every plot in the Star Wars Del Rey novels.
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Last edited by Sutehp on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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