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lurker
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 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: Light saber form VII Question(s) |
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Ok, I'm working on a wrap up of my LS dueling HR - based off and with input from CMR and others (thanks for the help on it!!!!!)
However, I've ran into issues with the LS forms. Specifically the prerequisite from some HRs for a form VII to have 2 D in ALL advanced forms. I agree this form should have the most stringent prerequisites than others, but to me that is too steep and unrealistic ... If that was the case, how did Darth Maul get the experience to become a master in all the forms and then excel at form VII to a point where he can kill a Jedi Master and hold off his apprentice in an extended duel (until Obi Won got lucky and surprised him ...)
Also, I read (I forget where) that few study all the forms because they know they will be spread too thin on their skills. So the focus on one (or a few) forms. So, how would one that mastered the most advanced forms start down the path of that by first mastering ALL forms ...
From looking at the "Fight Saber" article and the wookieepedia site, I can see elements of Form V, and maybe form IV, maybe even form I & II (but that is pushing it). But I don't see anything from form III, VI.
Would a good prerequisite be: must have skill (??? 1 D - 2 D ???) in both form IV & V, must also have at least ??? 1 d ??? in either form I or II. Maybe even add that unlike the other forms having a LS skill of 5 D, to get form VII you must have a base LS skill of 6 D & at least ??? 3 D ???? in other advanced forms.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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This is one reason why I dont actually treat the different forms as advanced skills. Rather, I run them each as a regular variation of the lightsaber skill itself, so there are, in effect, 7 different skills that can be used to swing a lightsaber.
For your purposes, you will need to define what constitutes "mastery" of a given form. How many D in the "A" skill does a character need to qualify as a master? By crmcniell's account, it seems that he only requires a form 7 prospect to dabble or be maginally competent in all forms before having the required foundation to even learn form 7, which is the character's true goal of mastery.
Also, who cares what another person's house rule says? Why cant form 7 have prerequisites of its own? After all, form 6 is a true mish mash of all the forms, so why not make it's prereqs based on all 5 other forms?
Try giving form 7 a prereq of 7D or 8D in lightsaber, allowing any dice in in advanced versions to count toward the skill.
I tend to simply view the forms as a custom combination of lightsaber skill, some other skills (jumping, brawling, intimidation, con, etc) and Force powers. YMMV. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| One last thing: if you want form 7 to "share roots" with other forms, you might try adding all the prereqs from those form collectively and using that as the foundation on which form 7 is built. That is, form 7 would have the same total prereqs as multiple other forms, but does not require any actual D in the other advanced skills. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Light saber form VII Question(s) |
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| lurker wrote: | | I agree this form should have the most stringent prerequisites than others, but to me that is too steep and unrealistic ... If that was the case, how did Darth Maul get the experience to become a master in all the forms and then excel at form VII to a point where he can kill a Jedi Master and hold off his apprentice in an extended duel (until Obi Won got lucky and surprised him ...) |
I don't see the problem. Learning an Advanced skill costs only 2 CP to learn it at 1D, plus an additional 6 CP to improve it to 2D. In essence, a character wanting to become a Form VII adept would need to have training in the basics of lightsaber combat (Form I), as well as the four combat oriented forms (II, III, IV and V) to have the knowledge base to learn Form VII. Apart from any CP spent learning the prerequisites, improving to 2D in those four forms would only require 32 CP, which is certainly a challenge, but not unrealistically out of reach.
| Quote: | | Also, I read (I forget where) that few study all the forms because they know they will be spread too thin on their skills. So the focus on one (or a few) forms. So, how would one that mastered the most advanced forms start down the path of that by first mastering ALL forms ... |
The description of Form VII states that it can only be learned by high level masters of multiple forms. Since Form VI was intended to be a balanced form that ended up too watered down, I left it off the list of prerequisites, but included the other four as a basic requirement.
| Quote: | | From looking at the "Fight Saber" article and the wookieepedia site, I can see elements of Form V, and maybe form IV, maybe even form I & II (but that is pushing it). But I don't see anything from form III, VI. |
In my version, I made Form I the basic Lightsaber skill, from which all the other forms derive (which is consistent with its description). Since I decided to make the Form VII bonus be applicable in all combat situations, including the defensive aspects of Form III and the melee combat emphasis of Form II seemed a logical inclusion. Seeing as how Form VI is more of an obligatory combat form for Jedi with a noncombatant emphasis, I left it out.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | This is one reason why I dont actually treat the different forms as advanced skills. Rather, I run them each as a regular variation of the lightsaber skill itself, so there are, in effect, 7 different skills that can be used to swing a lightsaber. |
I discarded this concept early on, as the seven forms seemed more consistent with advanced skills (I.e. you learned the basics by learning Form I, then branched out to apply those basics to more specific combat emphasis).
| Quote: | | After all, form 6 is a true mish mash of all the forms, so why not make it's prereqs based on all 5 other forms? |
My read from Fightsaber was that Form VI adapts jumped straight from Form I into Form VI, spending no time studying the other Forms.
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lurker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Light saber form VII Question(s) |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I don't see the problem. Learning an Advanced skill costs only 2 CP to learn it at 1D, plus an additional 6 CP to improve it to 2D. In essence, a character wanting to become a Form VII adept would need to have training in the basics of lightsaber combat (Form I), as well as the four combat oriented forms (II, III, IV and V) to have the knowledge base to learn Form VII. Apart from any CP spent learning the prerequisites, improving to 2D in those four forms would only require 32 CP, which is certainly a challenge, but not unrealistically out of reach. |
2CP ... Hmmmm I must have miss read the rules ... I thought it was 10 CPs for the initial 1d in an advanced skill, then it was normal progression on CPs ...
Still as you say 32 is steep.
Oh by the way, I must have missed that you didn't have all the forms in your HRs, but there are others (I think carbon copies off D20/SAGA rules) that do explicitly state all forms.
| crmcneill wrote: |
The description of Form VII states that it can only be learned by high level masters of multiple forms. Since Form VI was intended to be a balanced form that ended up too watered down, I left it off the list of prerequisites, but included the other four as a basic requirement. |
No matter what, I agree with that ! There is no way the lax mindset behind VI fits with VII. Also, that a form VII user MUST have training in multiple forms.
| crmcneill wrote: |
In my version, I made Form I the basic Lightsaber skill, from which all the other forms derive (which is consistent with its description). Since I decided to make the Form VII bonus be applicable in all combat situations, including the defensive aspects of Form III and the melee combat emphasis of Form II seemed a logical inclusion. Seeing as how Form VI is more of an obligatory combat form for Jedi with a noncombatant emphasis, I left it out. |
I agreed with you at first, until I read the Form I write up on wookiepedia. In it, it showed a form I master fostered an emotionally heated state (which surprised me!) balanced by the form's focus on disarming an opponent. Also, they were especially effective against multiple opponents. So with that I do think it is its 'own' form above and beyond just generic LS skills.
Also, I do see defensive elements of VII, but I do not see the completely passive defensive mindset of form III. From that I would argue that form V (& to a lesser extent form I & II) can give the defensive elements without needing form III
Let me run the numbers on my idea ..... You come out (as you said) 32 CPs above and beyond the basic 5D in LS
Mine, (now that I know it is only 2 CPs for an initial advanced skill)
Option 1 - 6D in LS, 2 D in IV & V, 1 d in either form I or II. is 15 CP + 6 CP + 12 CP = 33 CPs (the 6 D is to high a prereque looking at that sooooooo)
Option 2 - 5 D in LS,2 D in IV & V, 1 d in form I & II. Is 8 CP + 12 CPs = 20 CPs (is that too low ???? maybe)
I don't think there is a middle ground between your HR and my option 2, so ... when I write it up I'll put both options in it and who ever decides to give the HR a try can decide what flavor they prefer (and I may actually prefer yours after giving the rules a taste)
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Light saber form VII Question(s) |
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| lurker wrote: | | Still as you say 32 is steep. |
As it should be, if it is the CP cost required to represent high level mastery in multiple forms.
| Quote: | | I agreed with you at first, until I read the Form I write up on wookiepedia. In it, it showed a form I master fostered an emotionally heated state (which surprised me!) balanced by the form's focus on disarming an opponent. Also, they were especially effective against multiple opponents. So with that I do think it is its 'own' form above and beyond just generic LS skills. |
The problem there is the reliability of Wookieepedia as a source; it's less of a true encyclopedia than it is a dumping ground for information without regard for relative degrees of reliability. Much of the information you give about Form I is derived from video games such as the KOTOR series, which took the concept of the seven forms and warped it to suit their own purposes in a manner not consistent with what was originally proposed in Fightsaber. As such, when designing my system, I threw out a lot of material that didn't really fit with Fightsaber, including the emotionally heated state, the emphasis on disarming and the effectiveness against multiple opponents. Based purely on Fightsaber, Form I is just the basics of saber fighting, with the other forms taking those basics and building on them.
| Quote: | | Also, I do see defensive elements of VII, but I do not see the completely passive defensive mindset of form III. From that I would argue that form V (& to a lesser extent form I & II) can give the defensive elements without needing form III. |
I don't know if completely passive is accurate; if it were so, Anakin and Obi-wan would still be fighting.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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My biggest problem with using advanced skills is that prior to achieving the advanced form, a character cant even use that style. So, essentially, an adept must master whatever form he wants to use before he can benefit from his trainimg.
OTOH, how many D in an advanced skill would you say constitutes "mastery"? |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | My biggest problem with using advanced skills is that prior to achieving the advanced form, a character cant even use that style. So, essentially, an adept must master whatever form he wants to use before he can benefit from his trainimg. |
The way I designed my system, a character can still use a lightsaber without an advanced skill (Form I = Lightsaber skill), as the Advanced Forms provide a situational bonus equal to their skill level. For instance, a character with 6D in Lightsaber and 2D in Form II receives a +2D bonus when engaging in close combat, but loses the bonus when defending against ranged attacks. I didn't include any special moves or techniques, just areas in which a Form specializes, per the Fightsaber article.
I fail to see the issue that a character can't use an advanced skill that he hasn't been trained to use.
| Quote: | | OTOH, how many D in an advanced skill would you say constitutes "mastery"? |
Unknown. Advanced skills are an under explored and underutilized topic.
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lurker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Light saber form VII Question(s) |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
As it should be, if it is the CP cost required to represent high level mastery in multiple forms. |
As for the CP cost of 32 … it may depend on the game and how much a GM hands out, but that amount, plus the CPs they will need in the adventures, CPs to increase their force powers, and then cps for mundane skills … to me is ham strings a player (unless the games are high CP awards that is). Again, to me it comes down to what flavor of game you like. As I said, no middle ground between, so I’ll give both options, and the individual GM can pick ala cart.
| crmcneill wrote: |
The problem there is the reliability of Wookieepedia as a source; it's less of a true encyclopedia than it is a dumping ground for information without regard for relative degrees of reliability. Much of the information you give about Form I is derived from video games such as the KOTOR series, which took the concept of the seven forms and warped it to suit their own purposes in a manner not consistent with what was originally proposed in Fightsaber. As such, when designing my system, I threw out a lot of material that didn't really fit with Fightsaber, including the emotionally heated state, the emphasis on disarming and the effectiveness against multiple opponents. Based purely on Fightsaber, Form I is just the basics of saber fighting, with the other forms taking those basics and building on them. |
Well, as I’ve said before EU is my weakness, Also I’ve played a little of 1 game a long time ago and don’t remember any of the forms or their impact on the game.
That said, if the light saber article is the only source … then there is actually very little to work with. For form VII, a total of 1 paragraph that boils down to it is like but at the same time unlike form IV & V . Also Mace Windu is one of the few practitioners (and does not mention his specialized style of form VII at all).
With that, to fill in the blanks, wookiepedia is as good a source as any … as long as it isn’t completely counter to the feel of the article that is …
| crmcneill wrote: |
I don't know if completely passive is accurate; if it were so, Anakin and Obi-wan would still be fighting. |
Oh yeah, from the article, is says that form 3 is a “highly refined expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy” so from that, out of all the other forms, for III runs most counter to form VII.
| Naaman wrote: |
My biggest problem with using advanced skills is that prior to achieving the advanced form, a character cant even use that style. So, essentially, an adept must master whatever form he wants to use before he can benefit from his trainimg.
OTOH, how many D in an advanced skill would you say constitutes "mastery"?. |
Well, I can’t answer that BTB, but for me Jedi is just mastering the basics up through 5D in LS. That said, by all means if a character is leaning towards an advanced form prior to hitting the 5D encourage it. It may be just narrative, but you are the GM … give them a pip in specific situations that will encourage them to work toward the form that they are drawn too.
Above that, I was planning on say 5D in a form to be a master, but then I ran the numbers on a CP cost… I’ll drop it down to 4 D. Adding the 5D prerequisite and the 4 D for the form and you have 9 d in ls skills so that is a master by any ones standard.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I think advanced skills are a suitable way to go for the lightsaber forms, especially if you tag them as specialized advanced skills.
(A)Lightsaber: Form II gets raised at normal skill cost, but with training times reflective of a proper advanced skill, it's sort of the best of both worlds.
I've been fiddling around with some rules for lightsaber forms myself, although they're still in need of play testing and some editing I'm sure. I don't think they're completely ready for public view yet, but, I'm happy to share my first draft ideas for the requirements for the various forms, I went by their titled names rather than Form I,II,III since I sometimes lose track of which is which when looking at them numbered instead of named.
Anyway, here are my first draft requirement ideas:
| Quote: |
(A)Shii-Cho - Dexterity 2D, & Lightsaber 3D
(A)Makashi - Dexterity 3D, Lightsaber 5D or (A)Shii-Cho 2D
(A)Soresu - Lightsaber 4D or (A)Shii-Cho 2D, & 5D stamina
(A)Ataru - Lightsaber 5D or (A)Shii-Cho 3D, Stamina 3D, & Acrobatics 5D
(A)Sokan - Dexterity 3D, Dodge 4D, Acrobatics 4D, & Lightsaber 5D or (A)Shii-Cho 2D
(A)Djem-so - Strength 3D, Stamina 4D, Lightsaber 5D or (A)Soresu 2D
(A)Niman - Perception 3D, Persuasion or Intimidation 4D, & Lightsaber 4D
(A)Juyo - Strength 3D, Sense 2D, Lightsaber 6D, or (A)Shii-cho 3D
(A)Vapaad - Strength 3D, Sense 4D, (A)Juyo 4D, & a minimum of 1 dark side point.
(A)Shien - Dexterity 3D, Lightsaber 4D or (A)Shii-cho 1D
(A)Jar'Kai - Dexterity 3D+1, Lightsaber 7D or (A)Shii-cho 4D
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With my system, I capped my (A)combat skills I think at 6D or 7D, using the 4D = Professional level as a guideline, but this may change depending on play testing. With my house rules, I also halve Sense dice added in by lightsaber combat power.
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lurker
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
....
I've been fiddling around with some rules for lightsaber forms myself, although they're still in need of play testing and some editing I'm sure. I don't think they're completely ready for public view yet, but, I'm happy to share my first draft ideas for the requirements for the various forms, I went by their titled names rather than Form I,II,III since I sometimes lose track of which is which when looking at them numbered instead of named.
Anyway, here are my first draft requirement ideas:
... |
RR, thanks for sharing!
Fiddling and in need of play testing, that sums up my rules perfectly ! 
Your D requirements are a little lower than I was thinking for mine, but what is a D or 2 among friends 
On the other hand, I WILL steal your other requirements whole sale !
However, I'm the other side of the coin for the names vs their number ... I have them down pat on what is what numbered but my eyes glaze over with their names ...
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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I just hope they help out. For my rules, I set up Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary skill bonuses along with some mechanical downsides for certain forms. I think I'm happy with them for a first draft, but I'm sure I'll find that I need some further work. If you pop me an IM with your e-mail address, I can share my notes with you further. I'm not sure I'm ready for public criticism just yet. Anyway, let me know.
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lurker
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | I just hope they help out. For my rules, I set up Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary skill bonuses along with some mechanical downsides for certain forms. I think I'm happy with them for a first draft, but I'm sure I'll find that I need some further work. If you pop me an IM with your e-mail address, I can share my notes with you further. I'm not sure I'm ready for public criticism just yet. Anyway, let me know. |
Thanks, PM sent
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Light saber form VII Question(s) |
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| lurker wrote: | | As for the CP cost of 32 … it may depend on the game and how much a GM hands out, but that amount, plus the CPs they will need in the adventures, CPs to increase their force powers, and then cps for mundane skills … to me is ham strings a player (unless the games are high CP awards that is). Again, to me it comes down to what flavor of game you like. As I said, no middle ground between, so I’ll give both options, and the individual GM can pick ala cart. |
You don't want to make it too easy to learn Form VII; it's supposed to be hard to reach. A player may want to learn it, but the description practically insists that any rule for Form VII require time and CP costs. This isn't something characters should have access to without putting in a lot of time and effort.
| Quote: | | That said, if the light saber article is the only source … then there is actually very little to work with. For form VII, a total of 1 paragraph that boils down to it is like but at the same time unlike form IV & V . Also Mace Windu is one of the few practitioners (and does not mention his specialized style of form VII at all). |
That's because Fightsaber predates all the other sources on the seven forms. Form VII wasn't supposed to exist as of the KOTOR era, but I guess the idea was just too cool to let drop. After seeing what the Seven Forms have mutated into, I firmly believe there is such a thing as too much information. My take on Form VI and VII is that VI tried to be a balanced form and ended up too watered down, while Form VII succeeded where Form VI failed, but at a great cost.
| Quote: | | Oh yeah, from the article, is says that form 3 is a “highly refined expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy” so from that, out of all the other forms, for III runs most counter to form VII. |
All of the Seven Forms represent their own unique philosophies of combat. If Form VII is to be just as good on defense as it is on offense, it would make sense to incorporate the best defensive techniques of the other Forms and apply them to its own philosophy. That's why I included Form III as a prerequisite. Form V may incorporate defensive techniques, but it uses them offensively.
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