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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:09 pm Post subject: Walkers: Vehicle or Droid? |
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Are Walker vehicles actually vehicles, or are they droids with crew compartments? Since bipedal droids in the SWU are perfectly capable of ambulation (without too much trouble), would it be more effective to put a simple droid brain into a walker vehicle so that the pilot / driver wouldn't have to handle managing every single aspect of moving all the legs in concert? If a Walker can, in essence, act like a riding animal, it frees up the pilot / rider to perform other tasks. The ImpSB specifically states that the CAV has an advanced auto-pilot that allows the driver to handle the weaponry... Thoughts?
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Tinman
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Walkers: Vehicle or Droid? |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Are Walker vehicles actually vehicles, or are they droids with crew compartments? Since bipedal droids in the SWU are perfectly capable of ambulation (without too much trouble), would it be more effective to put a simple droid brain into a walker vehicle so that the pilot / driver wouldn't have to handle managing every single aspect of moving all the legs in concert? If a Walker can, in essence, act like a riding animal, it frees up the pilot / rider to perform other tasks. The ImpSB specifically states that the CAV has an advanced auto-pilot that allows the driver to handle the weaponry... Thoughts? |
They're vehicles. There is common Mechanical skill associated with piloting them. That said, droids can be programmed to operate them, and there's certainly nothing which would prevent an engineer from designing a walker scale droid which would perform similar duties. The reason this likely isn't common is that most sentient organics tend to distrust droids on some level, and don't like putting them in charge of piloting things or having them operate weapons of any sort. (Armed droids are a VERY unpopular concept, and even getting permission to have one legally pilot a small ship involves a lot of hassle and expense.) |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but arguing that something is a certain way just because that's the way WEG wrote up the skill system is not sufficient proof for me. I've seen and argued against too many WEG screwups to accept that the SWU is defined solely by them.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Corise Lucerne
Lieutenant
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'd argue that many of the walkers would probably have something like an very basic auto-pilot(drive?) feature built in for two reasons.
First, like you've already mentioned, the technology is already present not only droids, but starfighters as well. Just as they work on starfighters, the main benefit would be freeing up the crew from basic driving to do other tasks. This could be to focus on gunning down a particularly swift moving target or perhaps allowing a very heavily injured crew (possibly unconscious) to get back to base safety. Alternatively, it would be very nice for those fine details of having walkers meticulously board landing craft or even simply moving them around a large base for maintenance purposes.
Secondly, such an autopilot could theoretically also work like real-life cars shifting gears, so to speak. This would fine tune the stride for a particular speed for optimum stability, and also have some basic algorithm in there that prevents the walker from accidentally stepping onto or into something unstable or unsafe (like a log, hole in the ground, etc).
I would see this feature might be borderline between droid and computer programs, not really having much intelligence, let alone persoanlity, on its own. It might even be viewed something similar as to a ship's computer on a tramp freighter, or even below that.
Granted, there's no evidence specifically in SW canon for saying this, but it's one of those things that would make sense on a practical level.
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Ral_Brelt
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 May 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Maintaining leg operation and speed I can deal with just fine...having it react to the environment around it is a whole other ball of wires. I mean, using the same logic, cruise control from the 70s and adaptive driving response and crash mitigation for our newest cars is almost the same thing, right?
Crash mitigation in a typical car is a combination of radar, lane keeping cameras, stereoscopic cameras in the rear view mirror, an eye monitor for the driver and both audible and visual tattletails to alert the driver. Even then, there are very few systems that can actually fully stop the vehicle or adjust driveline to prevent a crash.
CRMC, Tinman's real argument was concerning the lore of the universe...
| Quote: | | The reason this likely isn't common is that most sentient organics tend to distrust droids on some level, and don't like putting them in charge of piloting things or having them operate weapons of any sort. |
They've talked about such in novels, and the game books themselves. Slave circuitry isn't trusted to do the job and considered risky...the P1 droid failed to take on for issues concerning risky actions and threatening organic life. Not to mention that it wouldn't defend the ship with weaponry for the chance to kill other sentients(the attackers).
I agree with Tinman...I see no issue with someone designing such...but I doubt it would go over well in the universe. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Corise Lucerne wrote: | I would see this feature might be borderline between droid and computer programs, not really having much intelligence, let alone persoanlity, on its own. It might even be viewed something similar as to a ship's computer on a tramp freighter, or even below that.
Granted, there's no evidence specifically in SW canon for saying this, but it's one of those things that would make sense on a practical level. |
Fifth degree droids are simple labor automatons, mostly with minimal intelligence. I would think installing a basic droid personality with appropriate sensors and assigning it to operate the legs on a walker vehicle would be much more efficient than trying to teach a human pilot to do the same, especially as the number of legs increases. I can't imagine a human pilot trying to operate the eight legs of an MT-AT without getting flustered at least once (and especially in combat, where the likelihood of distractions only increases).
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmmm. I have been watching this discussion and I am very confused. I do not think there is a cruise for AT's. The idea of droid brains in one, sure I can buy that, but only in as much as it helps with keeping the thing upright. Sort of like a super-gyroscope. It certainly cannot drive the AT unassisted. Also, having been through the Clone Wars I cannot see a droid driven vehicle as something that is going to happen. The Clone Wars left deep scars in galactic society especially towards droids. Just my thoughts.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ral_Brelt wrote: | | I agree with Tinman...I see no issue with someone designing such...but I doubt it would go over well in the universe. |
Not sure that's an accurate analysis of the sociology of droids and humans. Humans may not trust droids, but that certainly doesn't mean they aren't all over the place, performing the menial tasks that organics aren't interested in doing for themselves. They clean, they dig ditches, they load and unload cargo, etc. To put a simple animal-level droid intelligence in charge of moving the legs on a vehicle is not just cruise control on a car, as a car's mechanics and physics do not require a great deal of constant input from the driver. A walker on the other hand would require the driver to manually control each leg, picking a specific target point to place the next step. Since the technology already exists for bipedal / quadrupedal droids to operate their own legs without active human input, installing a simple droid intelligence to operate the locomotion of the walker and act as the interface between the pilot and the legs makes perfect sense from a practical standpoint.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Hmmmm. I have been watching this discussion and I am very confused. I do not think there is a cruise for AT's. The idea of droid brains in one, sure I can buy that, but only in as much as it helps with keeping the thing upright. Sort of like a super-gyroscope. It certainly cannot drive the AT unassisted. |
I agree up to a point, in that the driver of the AT would be more of a director. He would tell the droid intelligence where to go, as well as have some input with regards to avoiding obstacles and pitfalls, but the droid brain itself would do the actual walking, much like a horse and rider.
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Corise Lucerne
Lieutenant
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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Interface is probably a better descriptor of the concept I was trying to explain, thanks crmcneill.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Also, having been through the Clone Wars I cannot see a droid driven vehicle as something that is going to happen. The Clone Wars left deep scars in galactic society especially towards droids. Just my thoughts. |
It's worth noting that Robo-hacks (on ground) and drone barges (in space) aren't considered uncommon, which I would take to suggest that droid-driven vehicles by themselves wouldn't be a problem for many people, but rather droid-driven vehicles with access to advanced weaponry might not be viewed quite as benevolently.
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Tinman
Lieutenant Commander
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Sorry, but arguing that something is a certain way just because that's the way WEG wrote up the skill system is not sufficient proof for me. I've seen and argued against too many WEG screwups to accept that the SWU is defined solely by them. |
Well, there's also the fact that at least one has stopped moving when the people inside it got yanked out of the top hatch by a certain wookiee, and suspiciously didn't put up much fuss when unfamiliar native ewoks hopped into it and start messing around with the controls, causing it to move about erratically.. but if in your game you want to say that they're droids.. *shrug* Go for it. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Tinman wrote: | | Well, there's also the fact that at least one has stopped moving when the people inside it got yanked out of the top hatch by a certain wookiee, and suspiciously didn't put up much fuss when unfamiliar native ewoks hopped into it and start messing around with the controls, causing it to move about erratically.. but if in your game you want to say that they're droids.. *shrug* Go for it. |
And suppose the control interface requires active controller input, and if that input is removed (such as the character taking his hand off of it), it snaps back to neutral and the droid brain interprets that as "Stop Right Here"? I'm not saying that Walkers are droids in the sense that they would talk back to their operators and have personalities like R2 and 3PO, merely that a separate brain unit handles the actual mechanics of moving the legs to create locomotion, rather than a single pilot thinking to himself "Okay, pull the lever to lift Leg A, then use the joystick to move Leg A, then push the lever to set Leg A down. Now for Leg B..." This would be a simple joystick or steering wheel control that tells the droid brain "Go this direction at this speed", and the droid brain then moves the legs in the appropriate manner to create locomotion in the direction and speed indicated. In essence, the droid brain is the equivalent of the brain on a horse, and the walker itself is the body on which the rider rides. Even today we have airplanes like the F-117, the B-2 and the F-22 that are aerodynamically unstable and require computerized flight control interfaces for the pilot to be able to safely operate the plane. This would simply be the SW equivalent.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Corise Lucerne wrote: | | It's worth noting that Robo-hacks (on ground) and drone barges (in space) aren't considered uncommon, which I would take to suggest that droid-driven vehicles by themselves wouldn't be a problem for many people, but rather droid-driven vehicles with access to advanced weaponry might not be viewed quite as benevolently. |
Exactly. What I'm suggesting is not that the walker droid brain be able to move and fire the weapons, just that the droid brain serves as the control interface between the driver and the legs, interpreting control inputs and enabling locomotion to achieve the desired result indicated by the driver.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Corise Lucerne wrote: | I would see this feature might be borderline between droid and computer programs, not really having much intelligence, let alone persoanlity, on its own. It might even be viewed something similar as to a ship's computer on a tramp freighter, or even below that.
Granted, there's no evidence specifically in SW canon for saying this, but it's one of those things that would make sense on a practical level. |
Fifth degree droids are simple labor automatons, mostly with minimal intelligence. I would think installing a basic droid personality with appropriate sensors and assigning it to operate the legs on a walker vehicle would be much more efficient than trying to teach a human pilot to do the same, especially as the number of legs increases. I can't imagine a human pilot trying to operate the eight legs of an MT-AT without getting flustered at least once (and especially in combat, where the likelihood of distractions only increases). |
Issue there is a 5th degree droid wouldn't work to operate a combat vehicle due to the 3 laws. Combat droids which have those laws removed wont have the mech to do a walker justice..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Issue there is a 5th degree droid wouldn't work to operate a combat vehicle due to the 3 laws. Combat droids which have those laws removed wont have the mech to do a walker justice.. |
<sigh> Again, the only thing the droid brain would be doing is controlling the legs, not the guns. The gunnery would have to be operated by the human crew.
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