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Mikael Hasselstein
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 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Firmus Piett wrote: | | This thread is awesome! I joined the forum because I was so impressed by the research going on back in 2013, with Mojomoe and Mikael Hasselstein. I'm currently working on an article for my site detailing turbolasers, identifying and roughly scaling them. I want to show the differences in scale between them, in future vids and pics. So that discussion, along with the pictures, intrigued me. |
Admiral Piett,
You are most welcome to the Pit. Glad to have you here!
| Firmus Piett wrote: | I felt inspired to share an observation I think was missed, or at least not brought up. In ESB we do get a pretty decent look at what looks like a fairly detailed bunker, with a bolt actually emerging from an identifiable hole. The bunker has two rows of four holes (or perhaps 5, it's hard to tell), so it houses eight guns. I have also scaled the bunker at ~8.5 meters wide by ~3.5 meters tall. So considering it has two decks, the ceilings would be fairly low, and you wouldn't be able to stand (unless your less than 1.75 meters tall). So the gunners must be seated. The weapons would also have to be fairly compact, roughly equivalent in size to the anti fighter quad turrets on the Falcon. Much larger and you wouldn't fit eight of em in the bunker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAxYwXrJ5Mw&feature=youtu.be |
Wow, that is an observation that was missed. Thanks for bringing it.
Just a first-blush reflection - it doesn't seem to be at odds with the trench theory, if we think that these are the heavy-turbolasters that are supposed to be on the trench.
Do you have broader still images of these guns that show your measurements and calculations? |
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Mojomoe
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Mikael - how did we miss that??
Welcome, sir! Your observations are most appreciated! Out of curiosity, did you create this video? And if so, any chance of getting the other 3-5 blaster shots as repeating clips? This one shot is a gold mine!
So, yeah this certainly doesn't invalidate the trench. It just tells me a fair amount of weapons are at the top and bottom lining of said trench. One of the shots here looks as though it emerges from a mid-trench battery, that might be helpful to identify.
(Also, apologies on delays in my research, I'm wrapping my TOR sourcebook ATM. It's almost out!!) |
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Firmus Piett
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Firmus Piett
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Yeah Mojomoe, that is my channel. I could upload close-ups of the other shots if you'd like, but the bolt-emission features aren't nearly as distinct. This is the only example where we have a bolt emerging from a firing hole.
This bunker is large enough to house eight anti-starfighter turrets like the ones on the Falcon. Only the ceilings would be so low you could not stand completely upright.
I scaled the boxes you guys identified too. I noticed these ones have two ports for two weapons, unlike the one in the film which had eight. Some ports are closed, and some are open. These bunkers came to about 8.5 meters wide by 5 meters tall.
http://imageprocessor.websimages.com/fit/1920x1920/imagesstarwars.webs.com/Turbolaser%20stations%20in%20ISD%20trench.png
Although the bunker is only as wide as the one in the film, it only has one deck and two ports, so the weapons contained could be many times larger.
I also noticed that the second one along is different. It looks like a light turret with four barrels, whereas all the others look like weapons bunkers. By my estimates the two port bunkers could hold two of these (which may be heavy PD or light turbolasers):
The four barrelled turret looks like it may be the same weapon which is beside the quad turbolaser in the last picture of my previous post. So it's similar in scale to the Tantive's light turbolaser.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Firmus,
Will you be our friend? 
The video that you have of all the anti-starfighter fire going after the Falcon, that's clearly a ISDII, which isn't *supposed to* have that much anti-starfighter weaponry.
I've got a nasty feeling that this is another one of those cases where the *supposed to* of game stats is belied by the movies. That, or I'm having some reflux starting up. These things are not mutually exclusive, of course.
| Firmus Piett wrote: | | This bunker is large enough to house eight anti-starfighter turrets like the ones on the Falcon. Only the ceilings would be so low you could not stand completely upright. |
That's interesting and entirely plausible. The graphics are good too!
I'm not sure if what I'm seeing matches my understanding of what you're talking about. It looks like you're imaging some of the small defense lasers on the ISDI - presumably of the sort that did not shoot at the droids as they escaped to Tatooine aboard the escape pod. It sounds like you're talking about the large ports that we see on the side of the lower superstructure and forward facing on the command tower.
| Firmus Piett wrote: | Although the bunker is only as wide as the one in the film, it only has one deck and two ports, so the weapons contained could be many times larger.
I also noticed that the second one along is different. It looks like a light turret with four barrels, whereas all the others look like weapons bunkers. By my estimates the two port bunkers could hold two of these (which may be heavy PD or light turbolasers):
The four barrelled turret looks like it may be the same weapon which is beside the quad turbolaser in the last picture of my previous post. So it's similar in scale to the Tantive's light turbolaser. |
It may be late (2:26am at the time of writing) and I may be dim, but I'm not quite following along with which weapons hardpoints you're referring to at each section in your post. I think we might need to get some common namings down. Here's the weapon systems that I have in my head:
8 octuple turbolaser batteries (4 each side, with side arcs and the ability to rotate forward)
8x8 on either side - easily visible
50 Heavy turbolaser batteries (20 fire front, and 15 to each side, according to WEG)
I think these are:
25 on each broadside along the trench. They would not be the ones firing at the Millennium Falcon, because they're just not nimble enough for that.
26-50 turbolaser cannons
I think these are:
- Tower Heavy Turbolaser Cannons (facing forward) (2x6=12)
- Trench Heavy Turbolaser Cannons (forward and side arcs 2x4=8
Upper Superstructure Heavy Turbolaser Cannons (6x3=12)
Lower Superstructure Heavy Turbolaser Cannons (6x3=12)
Honestly, I think these are the best case for what you're talking about, and they're much more like those manually operated guns we see on the Death Star. But are the bunkers of which you have supplied us visual evidence just too small for that? I think you've simply uncovered an anti-starfighther weapons system that we know the ISDI has, but that the ISDII is not supposed to have, according to WEG.
20 ion cannons (10 fire front, and 5 to each side)
Trench-mounted ion cannons - I hold that there are actually just 10 of them, 5 of each side. These can face forward as well as to port/starboard respectively. |
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Firmus Piett
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | Firmus,
Will you be our friend?
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Sure
| Quote: | | I've got a nasty feeling that this is another one of those cases where the *supposed to* of game stats is belied by the movies. |
Yeah, I personally never found game stats particularly convincing.
| Quote: | | I'm not sure if what I'm seeing matches my understanding of what you're talking about. It looks like you're imaging some of the small defense lasers on the ISDI - presumably of the sort that did not shoot at the droids as they escaped to Tatooine aboard the escape pod. It sounds like you're talking about the large ports that we see on the side of the lower superstructure and forward facing on the command tower. |
You've lost me?
That section of my post was talking about these boxes in the trench:
http://imageprocessor.websimages.com/fit/1920x1920/imagesstarwars.webs.com/Turbolaser%20stations%20in%20ISD%20trench.png
Considering they only have two ports and are 8.5 meters across, I doubt they only house the blaster sized PD gun we saw in ANH. They would each be large enough to house two of these:
http://stardestroyer.net/tlc/Cannons/smalltl.jpg
Which could be light turbolasers or heavy point defence. And then there was one which looked like a light turbolaser, because it had what looks like four cannons instead of two firing ports.
As for weapons names, here's what I think can be identified from the films from both ISD's and models (I'll list names and links to pictures)
PD blaster (the escape pod menace in ANH)
Octuple gunnery embrasure, with eight anti-starfighter turrets within
(there is only one structure like this visible in the film)
Point defence stations other, miscellaneous, (similar but less identifiable structures concealing point defence)
Two port turbolaser stations housing two heavy point defence cannors or light turbolasers.
http://imageprocessor.websimages.com/fit/1920x1920/imagesstarwars.webs.com/Turbolaser%20stations%20in%20ISD%20trench.png
One of these is pictured in the ICS too.
Light duel turbolaser two barrelled turbolaser just left of the heavy quad)
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbradford/ISD_Side_3.jpg
Light quad turbolaser four barrelled ~8 meter wide turbolaser (2nd one along from the left)
http://imageprocessor.websimages.com/fit/1920x1920/imagesstarwars.webs.com/Turbolaser%20stations%20in%20ISD%20trench.png
Heavy quad turbolaser: four cannons (ISDI)
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbradford/ISD_Side_3.jpg
Heavy turbolaser turret: two cannons (ISDI main armament, cannons are missing in the picture)
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRyQvPaVS48NYDPcM6VdHmniWbUpAADJ1SqTP2gDAnCNECSiP40
Octuple-cannon barbette turbolaser turret (ISDII main armament)
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060521160743/starwars/images/5/52/Octuplebatteries.jpg
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Firmus Piett
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
Honestly, I think these are the best case for what you're talking about, and they're much more like those manually operated guns we see on the Death Star. But are the bunkers of which you have supplied us visual evidence just too small for that? I think you've simply uncovered an anti-starfighther weapons system that we know the ISDI has, but that the ISDII is not supposed to have, according to WEG.
. |
Well, the ISD clearly did feature numerous point defence stations, used for shooting at the Falcon and clearing asteroids in ESB. There are what look like small turbolasers on the ISDI, on the model, but I can't really identify any on the ISDII.
This picture seems to have a lot of bunkers big enough to house those manned DS guns,
http://imageprocessor.websimages.com/fit/1920x1920/imagesstarwars.webs.com/Turbolaser%20stations%20in%20ISD%20trench.png
Do you have a link to the original shoot? I'm not sure whether it is an ISDI or II. There are 5 two port bunkers for ten light weapons, and at least one heavier quad gun visible. So there could perhaps be a double dozen total weapons (exlcluding PD) along the length of the ship...
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Firmus Piett wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | I've got a nasty feeling that this is another one of those cases where the *supposed to* of game stats is belied by the movies. |
Yeah, I personally never found game stats particularly convincing. |
I tend to agree, but then, I don't think realistic weapon stats would be nearly as useful in-game. The current weapon stats allow Star Destroyers to use the Coordination rules to maximize their firepower for a specific use, be it inflicting maximum damage on a large-scale target, or maximum saturation in an attempt to hit a smaller, more maneuverable target, or some sort of happy medium. This is easier to achieve when you have a single type of weapon with uniform stats, as opposed to having a half-dozen different variations on turbolasers, all with differing stats that make Coordination much more complicated.
What clarified things for me was splitting the larger ships in Capital Scale off into their own Scale category (Dreadnought-Scale), then giving them weapons in both scales. Where an ISD I formerly had 60 turbolaser batteries, my version adds 20 heavy turbolaser batteries and 40 laser cannon, giving the ISD usable weapons in Capital Ship, Dreadnought and Starfighter scales, respectively.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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So... a LOT of new material in the Rebels season finale- including at least one area, I think, that we've never seen inside a Star Destroyed before?
Much as the giraffe-neck SD is underloved here, I will be very interested to see how this episode's insights into the basic interior structure of a Destroyer (including pointing to the engine room on a diagram at one point, I believe) integrate into the discussion here.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Argh, this all has been making my head hurt. (Also, I've been terribly busy with work and other projects.)
I'm not sure how we absorb and deal with all this contradictory information. A few pages ago, I thought I had it all worked out, but now...
...I don't. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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This seems as good a place for this as any. This is my version of the ISD I as adapted to fit my revised scale system. This system moves Capital Ship from +12D down to +10D (only 4D over Starfighter instead of 6D), then moves most of the bigger ships (Victory and up) up to Dreadnought, at +14D (8D over Starfighters and 4D over Capital Ship). As such, all the Dreadnought-Scale ships now have both Capital Ship and Dreadnought Scale armament (as well as Starfighter Scale weapons for defense), which is consistent with the appearance of the ISD in the films, in that it has both barbette-mounted heavy turrets as well as smaller cannon firing through ports in the hull. I'm sure the numbers I used won't match numerically with the film imagery, but then, I'm not sure the film imagery matches numerically with the film imagery, so it eventually reaches the point where we must make an ESWAG (educated scientific wild-@$$ guess).
IMPERIAL I-CLASS STAR DESTROYER
Craft: Kuat Drive Yards' Imperial I-Class
Type: Star Destroyer
Scale: Dreadnought (+14D)
Length: 1,600 meters
Skill: Capital Ship Piloting: Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer
Crew: 36,810 (Skeleton: 5,000 @ +20) & 540 Gunners
Crew Skill:
Astrogation 4D
Capital Ship Gunnery 4D+2
Capital Ship Piloting 5D+1
Capital Ship Shields 4D+1
Sensors 4D
Passengers: 9,700 (troops)
Cargo Capacity: 36,000 metric tons
Consumables: 6 years
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2
Hyperdrive Backup: x8
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 6
Hull: 7D
Shields: 3D
Sensors:
Passive: 50/1D
Scan: 100/3D
Search: 200/4D
Focus: 6/4D+2
Weapon Systems:
20 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 6 front, 6 left, 6 right, 2 rear
Crew: 5 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 4-20/50/100
Atmosphere Range: 8-40/100/200km
Damage: 7D
10 Heavy Ion Cannon
Fire Arc: 3 front, 3 left, 3 right, 1 rear
Crew: 5 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 3-15/36/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/72/150km
Damage: 5D
60 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 18 front, 18 left, 18 right, 6 rear
Scale: Capital Ship
Crew: 3 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 3-15/36/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/72/150 km
Damage: 5D
30 Ion Cannon
Fire Arc: 20 front, 15 left, 15 right, 10 back
Scale: Capital Ship
Crew: 3 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D+2
Space Range: 1-10/25/50
Atmosphere Range: 2-20/50/100 km
Damage: 3D
40 Laser Cannon
Fire Arc: 10 front, 10 left, 10 right, 10 back
Scale: Starfighter
Crew: 2 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.2/2.5 km
Damage: 4D
10 Tractor Beam Arrays
Fire Arc: 6 front, 2 left, 2 right
Crew: 4 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Scale: Special. Can alternate between Dreadnought, Capital Ship and Starfighter Scale, but transitioning between scales requires 1 round to reset the array, during which the Array can not be used.
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60 km
Damage: 6D
Notes:
-While there is a great deal of discrepancy regarding what weapons the ISD is equipped with in the films versus what it is equipped with in the RPG, I believe it possesses both heavy guns in turrets and smaller guns firing through ports in the hull (as well as smaller laser cannon used to engage starfighter-scale targets). In the spirit of WEG, rather than go over the models with a magnifying glass, I just picked a number. YMMV.
-I believe that there is a mix of both laser and ion weaponry at both the large and medium levels, while the starfighter weaponry is intended purely for defensive purposes.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Rezikai
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:59 am Post subject: |
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so... is it safe to assume if all the men/material inside an ISD and the huge engineering section seen in Rebels is canon that we may have to expand the 1600m length of an ISD?
It got me to thinking that maybe because 1600m was a nice round distance just at a mile that Lucasfilm created it for familiarity for the masses and not for the length that it'd need to be for the mass supplies/rooms/engines that would be needed (if we are to believe the cut-away design.. which may now be contradicted w/Rebels) im thinking it may be too short... *shrugs* anyone? |
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Mojomoe
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, long time!
Good question. Having studied the ISD stuff in Rebels - INTENTLY, I might add - I haven't seen anything that would immediately contradict the cutout or speak to it not fitting in 1600m. Besides, every bit of calculations - from the deck heights to the cargo bays to the size of the CR-90 corvettes - is designed around 1600m. There's a lot of canon evidence to support it.
What specifically are you thinking doesn't fit from Rebels?
EDIT - I just saw the above mention of someone pointing to the engine room on a diagram - anyone have a screen grab of that? I don't recall it.
However, even if that's contradictory, one thing I've learned from Star Trek fandom is not to take the on-screen diagrams as gospel, as that way lies madness. |
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Pel
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone knows those Trek ships are bigger on the inside. 
I just have to say this is some seriously good work and I wish I'd returned a few months sooner to participate more.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Well, if everyone's here, we can always pick it back up. |
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