Let's talk Star Destroyers!

[Mojomoe]

New information.

Though confusing.

After reading through the fabled Starships Collection, I've found it more or less confirms the information we already have, stating mostly surface fluff. The biggest takeaways are the "Axial defence turrets" where we currently know Starfighter Command to be (dorsal side of the hangar), the weapons targeting systems listed on the dorsal ridge abaft of the Starfighter Command, and the "sensor cluster" listed forward of that. (These are all in the side view, btw).

There's also the "fore weapons stations" at the forward bow area.

So, new information. I was flipping through the D20 "Starships of the Galaxy" book in a bookstore today, and found this:

.

Hoo, boy. Where do we start?

It also lists a variety of "stock" rooms for starships - engine rooms, med bays, storage lockers, holds. Could be useful for filling in info, but none of them are specifically ISD-related.

[Mikael Hasselstein]

I hate to break it to you man, but I posted that image way back on pg. 26.

Crazily enough, I actually had drafted the post below earlier today, but then had run into a connectivity problem. So, that means that we were both thinking along similar lines of getting back to this project.

==========
*shameless bump*

So, I'm back to thinking about the crew complement. Right now, I'm mentally working on the human resource needs of the fighter and shuttle wings, as well as what all goes into the maintenance and stowage of all the ships, shuttles and fighters aboard the ISD.

I'm taking the Carrier Air Wing of an aircraft carrier as my model. It's tempting to just take the crew needs of those per aircraft (about 2500 for some 70 aircraft and then multiplying that by the number of ships aboard the ISD. However, the technology is just so different, so it's a bit of a puzzle of what TIEs and all the different shuttles need.

Right now, I'm just trying to think about the needs of the TIEs, because they're simpler.

Anyway, that's just a sign of life from me.
How are you guys doing?

[CRMcNeill]

The only SW references to TIE fighter support staff are found in the Star Wars Sourcebook, page 118 (Imperial Garrisons), and the Imperial Sourcebook, page 95 (Ground Support Wing), and the sets of numbers match (which makes sense, since the staff of a Garrison Base is basically an Imperial Army Corps Command HQ unit).

For a 40-TIE Ground Support Wing, there are 40 pilots, 25 flight controllers, 25 sensor techs and 60 ground crew (110 beings total). Obviously, that's a lot smaller than a US Navy Carrier Air Group, but the support personnel are augmented by droids in the SWU, so their numbers tend to be on the lean side.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Mikael Hasselstein]

[Mikael Hasselstein]

Okay, so I'm just going to think about this in print so that I have it stored somewhere, but also to open up my thoughts and allow for you guys to give me some feedback on this, as I figure out the ground crew for the TIE Fighter Wing.

For starters, the Wing consists of the following ships:

48 TIE/Ln Fighters (4 squadrons)
12 TIE/sa Bombers (1 squadron)
12 TIE/In Interceptors (1 squadron)

As I wrote above, I'm thinking that each squadron has four times as many pilots assigned to it as it has ships to operate. That is so that the Wing can operate at maximum combat readiness, including near-constant deployment of all craft, with minimal time between sorties.


Berth Crews Section
The berths are where the racks hold the TIE Fighters that are ready for embarking and launch. This is also where the refueling takes place.

Regarding consumables, the TIE/Ln Fighter (to my mind and by my reading) only requires two consumables: life support (air/oxygen) and radioactive gas to power the blasters and/or the engines.

It also has coolant, but I imagine that is not consumed but merely needs to be cooled.

- Life support recharging
- Radioactive gas

So, when a TIE comes in to berth back in its rack, it needs to be refueled and prepped. That would involve replenishing the radioactive gas and life-support. Because there are 2x9=18 berths (which can house either four TIE/Lns or three TIE/sa or TIE/Ins each), I figure each berth has a refueling crew, and a couple of guys to do a visual check of the ship to detect for damage, and to read the coolant pressure.

So, I'm good for 4 crew per berth.

With those crew running 8-hour shifts, that would mean 12 per berth, and then 12x18=216 enlisted berth crewers aboard the ISD. However, those guys don't self-direct. This is the Empire for Chrissakes! Each berth crew would be commanded by a midshipman, who would answer to the Terminal Staff (a Jnr. Lt. and two ensigns). Each terminal (there are two: starboard and port) answers to the Wing's Maintenance Division Commander (a Jnr. Commander), who also is in charge of the 'Repair' and 'Transfers' sections. The Maintenance Division also has a staff, but I'll account for them elsewhere.

Repair Crews Section
The Star Destroyer has eight repair bays, where damaged TIEs can be serviced. Six of those are tighter bays for the TIEs, and two are wider and longer for the TIE Bombers and Interceptors. Because repair is much more ad hoc than resupply is, I'll just go with the same number of crew per repair bay as I went with crew per berth. So, 3x4=12 per bay, with 8 bays accounting for 96 enlisted, who answer to the (3x8=24) Bay chiefs, who hold the rank of ensign, who answer to the Repairs Section Commander, who holds the rank of Snr. Lieutenant. the Repairs Section Commander also answers to the Maintenance Division Commander.

Transfer Racks Section
While Flight Control is in charge of safely guiding TIE fighters back into the bay, once they're inside it's necessary that the TIEs don't collide with one another or their surroundings. This is especially important with the TIE bombers which usually still carry a great deal of the ordnance they flew out with.

Unlike the berth crews or the repair bay mechanics, the rack crew need to quickly assess a TIE when it 'racks in' (ie. comes to a landing in its racking mount). There are five locations where a TIE fighter can rack in: the two landing hangars forward of the main bay, two inside the cavernous hangar aft of the main bay, and one in the hangar aft of the Secondary Bay. (The hangar forward of the Secondary Bay does not have rack mounts.)

Sticking with the crews of four, four spotters are assigned to each of these hangars to quickly assess an incoming TIE's readiness to be routed back to a berth or if it needs to be sent to a repair bay. Usually, if it's coming in to a repair bay, an emergency medical crew will also have to be on hand to care for (or dispose of) the pilot.

After the hangar spotters have cleared a TIE to return to berth, these TIEs are watched by corridor spotters. Because the transfer racks are fairly efficient, something rarely goes awry, so this is a fairly boring job, but crews need to be on hand quickly in case a TIE being transferred from the hangar to the berth or repair bay gets caught. When TIEs are coming in fast ahead of a jump to lightspeed, any clogging in the corridor can create tremendous damage. Therefore, four crewers are assigned to each transfer corridor segment. There are fourteen such segments. While some are long corridors outside of the berth terminals, the bottleneck segments are between the secondary bay and the two TIE landing hangars forward of the main bay. These are where a particular large amount of TIE traffic comes through and where accidents are most likely to occur.

Each hangar and corridor segment is directed by a midshipman, who answers to the Transfer Racks Section Commander. While Hangars and Corridors are each considered a Unit (with each hangar and corridor considered an element), there is little need for too much middle management. That is very different from the shuttles wing, where the variety of ships being dealt with and the need to clear up flat space in the hangars is more complicated.

Wing Medical Section
Finally, Maintenance also includes a small emergency care section to provide for the injured (or dying) TIE pilots. These emergency medical personnel stand by in the repair bays, inside which are small emergency clinics. In all, there are two elements of four medical responders. Two in each repair bay. The medical responders are all of officer rank depending on their level of traning, but answer to the Wing Medical Section Commander (a Snr. Lt.). The Wing Medical Section Commander answers to the Commander of the Wing Maintenance Division.

==============================================

Numbers (officers + enlisted = total):
Maintenance Command Staff: 9
Berth Crews: 75 + 216 = 291
Repair Crews: 27 + 96 = 123
Rack Rats: (+3 commanders)
- Hangars: 15 + 60 = 78
- Corridors: 42 + 168 = 210
Medical: 9

TIE Wing Maintenance Division: 180 + 540 = 720

[Mikael Hasselstein]

Okay, all of that was just Maintenance.

We also know the Squadrons Section of the Wing (ie the pilots), and they number 6*48=288. They answer to the Deputy Wing Commander, so the whole Section is 289.

That leaves me to still calculate the following sections for the TIE Wing:

- Flight Control
- Ordnance
- Training
- Tactical Intelligence

But those are going to be much smaller sections than Maintenance.


Also the TIE Fighter Wing is going to be a lot simpler than what I'll have to figure out for the Shuttles Wing.

[CRMcNeill]

Do you have Operations in there somewhere, too?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[CRMcNeill]

[Mikael Hasselstein]

[Mikael Hasselstein]

Oh no! This awesome thread is about to fall off the edge of the first page! I need to rescue it from that bitter fate!

So, here goes a small addition:

Based on the cut-outs book, and my own re-creations of what I see in there, it's evident that there are actually twelve bomber-reload bays on the TIEs level, with six to either flank of the hangar's flight control area. That fits with a bomber squadron.

So, these are the reinforced bomber berths where the bombers are stowed when not prepared for launch. That is prudent, because accidents happening to ordnance aboard a part of the ship so close to the hard vacuum is not a risk the Navy would want to take.

These berths have a similar but enhanced function to the TIE berths. That enhanced function is related to the TIE Bomber's different function in battle. TIE Bombers do not have the patrol function that TIE fighters do. Instead, they are intended to deliver a payload to a designated target. So, while the TIE/sa needs to be checked, fueled and serviced in the same way a TIE fighter does, it also needs to have its ordnance reloaded. That's what those bomber berths are for, and why there are special transfer corridors connected to the main hangar bay.

While TIE Bombers can be cycled through the transfer racks along with the fighters (despite their wider beam), it's most efficient to have them come up through the main hangar, which will give them quicker (and less congested) access to the bomber berths. In those berths they can be safely reloaded (safe for the rest of the ship, should something go wrong with the reloading of bombs, torpedoes and/or missiles), and transfered to the launch rack.

This allows for quick recycling of bombers for constant bombing campaigns, which the Empire is probably quite fond of doing.

Anyway, that's my developing thought process behind what I am about to come up with for the Ordnance section of the TIE Wing.

(And to keep the thread alive. Where is everybody?)

[CRMcNeill]

Looks fine to me.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Mojomoe]

I'm here!

(Sounds of struggling to keep head above waves of real life)

...Gbllgbllnlllglblgbbbll...

I've written and lost more than a few responses to this, let me collect my thoughts and I'll post them here! I've had some insights from some related research in my campaign that might help (specifically concerning the layout of the Harrower-class dreadnought from The Old Republic, a 3000-year-old ISD ancestor)

Still alive, viva la thread!

[Mojomoe]

Ok, so this all looks fantastic.

I really appreciate the attention to detail in regards to the removal of stuck TIEs inside the transport corridor, this lends a level of realism that will carry us far. Kudos.

Like crmcneill, I am curious about some aspects of the rotational shifts and Imperial mentality you've outlined, so help me work through some thinking here. What you've got is a full-alert ship ready to go at a moment's notice, with redundant systems and shift-rotation preparedness. This makes sense for someone who has even casually examined the needs of a functional starship and deployment center (in-universe), but it seems to not jive well with the Empire's general strategy. I'll explain:

What you're laying out is the structure that would supply fast-deploy wings of highly-trained pilots in rapid succession. What we actually have in evidence, however, is extremely slow or limited deployment of... Well, really *bad* pilots. Now, you could chalk that up to the Imperials just being inferior beings, but I have a difficult time seeing these guys training on simulators for 8 hours a day, every day. It also brings into question why they only ever launch, at most, five ships.

Now granted, this may be WAY too literal. I totally grant that upfront and I have no intention of being a stickler for this. I just wanted to get your take. A cursory examination from the opposite side might say "these pilots are poorly trained, and the launch preparation is so poorly structured that they never get more than a squadron out." Such an approach would have canon to support it, I just don't know what we want here.

Another example is this: the Death Star is nothing BUT space. Seriously, one would have to FIND things to fill up space in that thing, or for the Stormtroopers aboard her to even do all day. But still, the Hayne's Manual has the Stormtroopers sleeping in tiny morgue wall slots. That's the equivalent of owning an empty mansion and sleeping in a closet voluntarily. To paraphrase Spaceballs, "now you see that [good] will always triumph, because [evil] is dumb." You have to know the Empire KNOWS this stuff. They just don't care. They're EVIL(tm), with a capital E, and that means they can solve problems with brute force rather than ingenuity.

The alternative would be to say that they ARE highly intelligent, just arrogant. It's not worth training one pilot to be good, when ten average ones get the job done. Nor on launching more than five fighters - who would need to? Another thing to consider is that, by and large, are not the Empire's ships built the same ways ours are - ie, lowest bid contractors? We know from canon sources that many of their components are cheap enough to be modular; therefore we can infer that ingenuity and purpose-built design are NOT more important than ease of construction or complete component efficiency. In this manner, you might see a slow-operated launch facility in place not because it was the right choice for an ISD, but instead because it was the best AVERAGE mechanism for the fleet, battle stations, planet side facilities, and carriers. We can explain away a lot of stupidity with greed for fast construction and modularity - should we so choose.

So that's the question I put to you: is the Empire smart or dumb? It's a big question going forward, and an important one to answer as regards our design decisions.

I'll also add that I know how obnoxious I'm being with an intermission followed by poking holes in your theories . If you decide this question is not worth answering, by all means move on!

And lastly, I'm ecstatic that the Starships D20 pic was already found - no new information required! I must have missed it.

[Mikael Hasselstein]

Your critique is a good one.

As an organization, I would say that the Navy is an intensely bureaucratic one, and the Imperial regime is an intensely wasteful one - intended to impress, rather than be effective/efficient.

Regarding the TIE pilots. The ImpSB stats give us people with 6d in starfighter piloting and 5d in starship gunnery. I realize that the Core book has them at 4d+1/4d respectively. Either way, these guys are pretty good.

Regarding the numbers and readiness that we see in the movies, I think we need to keep the necessities of cinematics in mind, but also (during the evacuation of Hoth) the notion that the Millennium Falcon was not the only target they were chasing.

But, more to the point - what I am describing is the ISD's design; the way that the navy and Lira Wessex intended for it to be. I'm not talking about the actual reality of the way a corrupt, totalitarian bureaucracy actually functions. I imagine most of these ships are not ship-shape, and that people wander off duty to go get drunk on occasion. You know, the Soviet Union.

Also, I'm just trying to fill up numbers. With all the wasteful redundant use of human capital thus far, I'm still only 40% of the way.

[CRMcNeill]

So, incidentally, we have to rethink the Theta, as it is apparently no longer canon. Mikael, did you ever generate dimensions for it?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index