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lurker
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 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| DB 2.0 wrote: | | For me "Grey Jedi" is a philosophy thing not an "Alignment" Thing or a Game Mechanic Thing. where a Jedi denies and eventually banishes his Anger, Fear, Hatred and so on a Grey Jedi excepts them, controls them, eventually overcomes them and dose not them master him. |
DB, I agree with you on that! It may not be official cannon or EU, but that is how I see them ... Qui-Gon Jinn was on that edge and disagreed with some of the official Jedi tenants. To me he is the model of a gray.
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To me, cleansing themselves should be a ritual done, not just 'something they can do' as part n parcel of their day to day activities
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Gar - I would say that the ritual done to cleanse could be part and parcel of one's daily life. A real life example, I get up (well try to anyway) early every morning, read the bible, pray, meditate on what I read, my life, how to apply it, and how to build up my weaknesses and failures. To me that is (or part of) the cleansing ritual.
Put that into gaming, a Jedi would also do those things as would a gray (if we take the gray to be a Jedi 'straddling the fence so to speak - which I don't like). However, the gray would be more practiced at cleansing themselves because they do it more often (a good Jedi once in a blue moon would slip up and need to cleanse, so would be more traumatic for him, but this type of gray would do it ... weekly ... daily ... and would be more used to it). With that, a Jedi would take a day(s) to cleans themselves, but a gray would be part of his daily 'preparation for the day'
Now, like I've said, I don't like that idea of a gray, but using the outlook that DB (which I do lean towards) brought up, the gray doesn't deny his emotions and try to bury them, but excepts them and in accepting then controls them (Love does not necessarily lead to jealousy, anger, does not have to lead to hate so the gray experiences love/joy/anger/ etc without them driving him) With this he would more easily cleanse himself because he isn't trying to root out the emotions themselves, just his bad reaction to them and the world at large. An easier process than trying to force down all emotion, therefor an easier cleansing process.
Boy I chased a rabbit on that one, sorry about rambling ...
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Your description, lurker, makes me think of the Vulcans in Star Trek, who so often try to purge emotions. They still have them, they just try to suppress and not be ruled by them.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: |
DB, I agree with you on that! It may not be official cannon or EU, but that is how I see them ... Qui-Gon Jinn was on that edge and disagreed with some of the official Jedi tenants. To me he is the model of a gray.
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But merely disagreeing with tenants and such is not what makes one grey. its use of both light and dark side powers that does.. Other than some groups in the EU no canon example of jedi who has used both sides has NOT been corrupted.. Not even Dooku.
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lurker
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
But merely disagreeing with tenants and such is not what makes one grey. its use of both light and dark side powers that does.. Other than some groups in the EU no canon example of jedi who has used both sides has NOT been corrupted.. Not even Dooku. |
I'll admit that EU and cannon is a huge weakness of mine. I haven't read any of the novels (outside the old Han Solo & Bounty hunter books from back in the day) played only a little of one of the Knights of the Old Republic game, and haven't played SW RPG in over 12 years soooo there is a ton of info I don't know.
Because of that, - & I may not make this point when I do post a point especially one where I chase rabbits like my above post - my ideas are a 'if I were to run a game, in my specific homebrew SW setting' instead of me saying 'I believe this is how it is in the official EU cannon". It is sort of a "Mythbusters" moment of 'I refute your reality and insert my own'.
If we go with Gray being Jedi who purposely simply straddle the fence using both light and dark, then yes I would agree that they will eventually fall to the dark, or less likely be drawn to the light. Humans are not geared to stay 'neutral' like that. Either power will corrupt them and they will be drawn away form neutrality to the dark, or they will resist the temptation and grow towards the light. If that is the case, then Gray Jedi are actually just in transition between one side or the other. admittedly some may drag that transition out for an extended time. A few of them may even develop ways to hold onto the fence and slow the fall to one side or the other, but eventually ...
Now, again, only for 'if I was to run a game' along side those Grays, I would also have Grays that are in the mold of Qui-Gon. Good and followers of the light, but with an outlook and philosophy that is in friction with the normal Jedi lead by the counsel.
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DB 2.0
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:53 am Post subject: |
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A wile back I watched RotJ and counted up how many DSP's Luke would have earned, depending on the GM it was between 7 and 10, but then I got clever and subbed applications of non DSP generating force powers that the first time through where Dark Side Powers and that knocked the total down to around 4, so depending on how long there was between acts 1 & 2 Luke should have bean fairly safe.
a Dark Sider dose a Force Choke crushing the life out of there victim, a Grey Jedi uses Telekinesis to put someone in a sleeper hold for stun damage. both look roughly the same to the uninitiated and even adepts at first glance, but one is a Dark Side Power wile the other is just "Naughty" in the big book of Jedi By-Laws and Procuduers.
a Sith summons their Anger, Fear and Hatred to shoot bolts of Dark Side Energy in the form of Force Lightning to incapacitate their target to incapacitate them by inflicting agony on them, a Grey Jedi alters the local electro-static fields to throw a Stun Bolt using the force as a Tazer gun. |
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shootingwomprats
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| DB 2.0 wrote: | A wile back I watched RotJ and counted up how many DSP's Luke would have earned, depending on the GM it was between 7 and 10, but then I got clever and subbed applications of non DSP generating force powers that the first time through where Dark Side Powers and that knocked the total down to around 4, so depending on how long there was between acts 1 & 2 Luke should have bean fairly safe.
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Lets see. If he was using force choke (well inflict pain) he would have gotten 1 per gammorean, and one more later when he struck out at that guy on the sail barge who shot his hand (anger). Then 1 maybe 2 when he fought vader. So 4-5 is what i can see.
How ever had he instead used affect mind on the gammoreans to THINK they were choking, it drops to 2 possibly 3.
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DB 2.0
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| there where a couple of times when Luke reacted out of fear as well depending on the GM that can be good for a DSP each time. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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If reacting out of fear is good for a DSP many of my players through out the years would have had their characters slip to the dark side quickly!
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Concerning the remark about Qui-Gon, I find it interesting because in my opinion, Qui-Gon epitomises the ideals of what a Jedi is supposed to be. In my book, Qui-Gon is the best example of how a Jedi should behave.
Yoda is, obviously, the primary authority on all things Jedi, but other than these two characters, all other Jedi portrayed in the movies have some moment where they waiver in their beliefs.
Now, after Ep II and III, I've lost respect for Obi-Wan because he is portrayed as so inept... approaching the lameness of the king of Star Wars lameness, Luke Skywalker himself. Only Jar-Jar is a less desirable character than Luke. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:07 am Post subject: |
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What aspects of E2 and 3 Obiwan do you feel he is inept in?
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lurker
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: |
Concerning the remark about Qui-Gon, I find it interesting because in my opinion, Qui-Gon epitomises the ideals of what a Jedi is supposed to be. In my book, Qui-Gon is the best example of how a Jedi should behave.
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I agree with you on that is 'how' they should be, but in the movies it said that he was in conflict with the council disagreed with them in their outlooks etc etc etc. I'm sure someone here knows the exact quote from Obi-Wan, but it made me think 'If only you would play nice with the council you'd be in better graces, and therefore if you keep acting like you do you may be out of favor completely'.
Because of that, I keep picturing a portion of the Grey Jedi being good Jedi but just disagreeing with the Jedi council's tenants and doctrine. This may be incorrect in the EU, but ...
Also, I may be looking at it from my philosophical outlook, disliking the fact that Jedi are toooo eastern influenced and there is no Grecko/Roman 'Stoic" outlook. With that I want to massage it to allow that outlook into the party which will inherently make them Gray.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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To me disagreeing with the council is not something that makes one grey, unless that disagreement borders on the line of being willing to use dark powers.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW I've read some of the EU stuff on Qui-Gon, and they were very clear that Qui-Gon very much displeased the Council and was at odds with them (of course, as lurker points out this is also referenced in the movies).
In my mind I can see this as somewhat "gray", in that he was at odds with the established heirarchy (sort of like a Cardinal in the current Catholic church at odds with the papacy in Rome). That wouldn't (necessarily) mean he dabbled in the Dark side or ever did evil, at least the way I see it. But he might he might have outlooks, ideals, and motives that very much contrasted with the 'official' Jedi order and code. Perhaps such a Gray Jedi believes it is okay to take a wife and raise a family, for instance. Not anything inherently "evil" or wrong with that; just a very different way of life from the established rules of the Jedi.
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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[DougRed4] FINALLY! Someone says the same thing I have been saying for a while now and does so without prompting by me.
YES! "Grey" in this context ONLY refers to a Jedi that is not in-line with the dogmatic Jedi Code. It has nothing to do with his philosophy, use of the Force, etc.
The term would be akin to a US Sentator who is a "closet communist". It does not say he is not an American but that he feels that is should have more socialist inclinations. The same thing with "grey" Jedi.
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