Gray Jedi

[Naaman]

It seems to me that the disconnect is actually found in the interpretations of the meaning of "balance tothe Force."

If you fall into the camp of balance being dependent upon the prevalance of lightside versus darkside Force users, then you probably have no issue with "gray" Jedi.

If you are in the camp of Balance means no darkside influence, then "gray" equals unbalanced/corrupted to some degree.

[Dromdarr_Alark]

[shootingwomprats]

Now we are making headway. Force Lightning was just an example of one power "traditionally" assumed to be a Dark Side skill. This applies to many other "dark" skills. Again, and I cannot stress this enough, THERE ARE DARK SIDE ONLY skills. I never, ever said there were not. Only that there are few truly "dark" skills.
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Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter

[shootingwomprats]

Balance in the Force is only something I have heard a Jedi refer to. Never a Sith or another Force philosophy. So I would again, chalk "balance in the Force" to Jedi indoctrination.

If you want to go with the balance issue you can easily equate it politics:

10% far right
10% far left
80% moderates

Again, just because the Jedi/Sith are the most prevalent (loudest, flashiest, etc) does not mean they are the only game in town. Even if they were, the percentages would probably be the same amongst Jedi with the Sith being zealots. This owing to their small numbers.
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Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter

[Naaman]

Still, we beg the question: is the nature of the Force dependent upon or independent of the point of view of the person using it?

According to what I can gather, the Force is what it is, and Force users are subject to the "laws" thereof. For example, the laws of physics apply to people even if they have never heard of them or dont "agree" with them.

Does the Force work the same way? I believe it does: regardless of what you believe about the Force, it works how it works. Attempting to be "gray" is simply a path toward the Darkside by way of abusing or taking advantage of the rules of the game which try to put numerical parameters on a very unquantifiable phenomenon. To put it another way, the bsic idea presented n the films (my primary source of information) is that the ends do not justify the means. A gray Jedi would argue that they do. This alone flies in the face of the concept of moral highground, which is why in my opinion gray=dark.

[shootingwomprats]

Okay I think people need a better definition of what a "grey" Jedi is.

"The term Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council and operated outside the strictures of the Jedi Code. However, those who were considered to be true Gray Jedi met both qualifications and did not belong to any particular Force tradition."

So a "gray" Jedi is NOT an excuse to use all the Force skills without consequence. A "grey" Jedi is not immune to the Dark Side.

My thoughts on the Force is it is a tool. The only thing that it actively does is seek balance. This means that Light and Dark are constantly battling to tilt the balance and the Force scrambles to balance things out.

I just find it improbable that the Jedi/Sith are the only ones who understand the workings of the Force. I think a lot of what we read or see in the movies is not so much the truth about the Force, but that persons philosophy about the Force as he sees it or was taught it. Call it Jedi doctrine, dogma, whatever. I think in the Star Wars there are more than two flavors of Kool-Aid to drink from.
_________________
Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter

[Naaman]

And there you have it: in your campaign, the Force can be whatever you want. In my campaign, its black and white, and a "gray" Jedi will eventually have to choose one side or the other (balance or corruption).

In your campaign, a character does not disturb the balance by using the Force to yank someone's guts out of their keester annd then he saves a little girl from pirates, thereby "atoning" for his act. Essentialy, DSPs and FPs become a sort of currency with an equal exchange rate and, based on my interpretation of what you propose, a character can go back and forth all day long as long as he doesnt cross a certain line.

That you refer to the Force as a tool seems to indicate a leaning toward what I would call a more "Darkside point of view" using reasoning and justification to apply the Force in ways that work against it's harmoneous relationship with life.

So, in my campaign, you would fall to the darkside but wouldnt even know it. Its essentially just like an NPC I made whose life goal was to hunt down and destroy all darksiders by any means necessary. He used plenty of hate and anger and even powers like Force lightning and telekinetic kill to bring them down. His justification was that the ends justified the means. Fewer bad guys was a good thing. Still, he was corrupted and didnt even k.ow it.

[garhkal]

[Jedi Skyler]

I know this discussion has died down, but I was looking around on the Holocron (now that it's back up), and found this interesting article listed among the heading Force Paths:

The Path of Baadu

The Baadu, or Gray Jedi, are a rare breed of force users. They consciously try to remain neutral in the struggle between the Dark Side and the true ways of the Jedi. This is not an easy task, and it is harder to attain even a fair amount of neutrality when one is working with the Force. A very specialized Force Power (The Cleansing) is needed for the existence of the Baadu.

Note: Baadu are very rare. NO non-force users (except those with Scholar: Jedi Lore 10D+) should have heard of them, and only Jedi Masters (or any Force users with 30D in total Force Skills) should have heard of them. Note that I say “heard,” and not “be a fountain of youth in the Ways of the Baadu.” GM's should not have their favorite tavern owners spinning off tales of the dozens of Baadu-related stories that they've heard.
History of the Baadu

The Way of the Baadu was spawned from Biirta Baadu, a human Jedi Master who flirted with the Dark Side for much of his very long, Force using life. He never actually became an adept of the Dark Side, but became quite well versed in its use. Biirta managed to develop a Force power that was able to keep him somewhat free from the clutches of the Dark Side. He was always just beyond reach. He never taught anybody his findings, but his journal survived. A few copies of his journal were made, and they exist scattered throughout the galaxy.

The Baadu tend to be very solitary. There is no unity in the ranks of the Baadu, and there may be enmity between members on the rare occasions they meet. The way of the Baadu is a lonely path, and few people can maintain the duality of consciousness it requires.

Most Baadu tend to lead “questionable” lives, doing things along the lines of bounty hunting, smuggling, etc. Although these acts are certainly illegal (for the most part), their evilness can be questioned...
Force Side Points

Instead of just receiving Dark Side points, Baadu receive "Force Side Points". When a Baadu commits an evil act, he receives a Dark Side Point, just like all of the other Force users of the galaxy. When a Baadu commits a good act, he receives a Light Side Point. The principle is the same as for the Dark Side Point, except one receives a Light Side Point when committing good acts.

Baadu are consistently attempting to have ZERO points in both. They want NO Light Side Points and NO Dark Side Points. This can be attained by one of two ways.

Removal of Force Side Points Through Deeds: The Baadu can remove a Dark Side Point by not doing anything evil for ONE adventure/episode. Being “kind of good,” but not good enough to get a Light Side Point. GM's, use your discretion here. Baadu should be able to remove a Dark Side Point by not doing anything evil. Not necessarily being NICE, but even just the good side of neutral. The Baadu can remove a Light Side Point by not doing anything good for ONE adventure/episode. Being “kind of evil,” but not evil enough to get a Dark Side Point. Stuff like killing people who deserve to die, and REALLY enjoying it. Or, if a Baadu was working for the rebels, they'd be able to remove a Dark Side Point by torturing an imperial person who wouldn't talk, to get valuable information.
Removal of Force Side Points Through the Cleansing: When Birtaa Baadu first decided to be a neutral force user, he found that method #1 was unwieldy and cumbersome. There were times when he didn't know where he stood in his “alignment” at the moment. After years of intensive study, he managed to develop a unique and powerful force power -- the Cleansing. The use of this power facilitated advancement through the force. Baadu wondered how he kept the path without it. There were setbacks, but Baadu found the bonuses of the power to outweigh the setbacks.

How to Forget the Ways of the Baadu

If you are using The Cleansing, stop.
If you want to become a Dark Side force user, simply get rid of your Light Side Points, and advance your Dark Side Points to 6. Once the Baadu's Dark Side Points equal 6, the Baadu way is forgotten, perhaps forever.
The operation is the same if the Baadu character wishes to become a Jedi Knight. Simply get rid of all Dark Side Points, and increase Light Side Points to ten. (remember, the Dark side is quicker and easier) Once LS points are brought to ten, all Baadu hindrances and bonuses are lost.

Note: A Baadu character can exceed the Dark Side threshold of 5 DS points and still remain Baadu. To leave the way of the Baadu, a character must actively choose to leave, and the threshold must be exceeded.

Note: The difference threshold should be no more than seven at any time. (i.e. the Dark Side Points minus the Light Side Points should not be greater than 7 or -7) If the difference threshold is exceeded, Baadu lose their abilities (Subtract the lesser number of the Force Side Points from the greater. If there are more Dark Side Points, the resulting number is how many Dark Side Points the Character has. If there are more Light Side Points, the GM can 1.) put Dark Side Points at zero, if the GM does not want to use the Force Side Point System for non-Baadu; 2.) put the resulting number in as Light Side Points.
Force Points and Force Skills

The Baadu receive Force Points for committing acts, just as other Force users do. When they spend a Force Point for good/evil, they get one Force Point back at the end of the adventure/episode. When they use a Force Point for good/evil at the dramatically appropriate moment, they get two Force Points back.

The Baadu can use Dark Side Powers without automatically gaining a Dark Side Point, however they do receive a Dark Side Point if the Dark Side power is used for extreme evil.

It costs 50 - 100% more cp's to raise force skills than a normal Jedi. For example, to raise Control 4D to Control 4D+1, with a Master it would take 6 - 8 Character points, depending on your GM's preference.

As an option, GMs should feel free to impose a dice limit of 5d-10d on Control, Sense, and Alter. This is suggested only if the GM feels this Force-using template is too powerful.
Curiosities/Miscellaneous

Most Baadu use lightsabers, but some favor blasters. It is a matter of personal preference. If a PC wishes their character to be a blaster toting Baadu, GM's should incorporate the abilities of the Teepo Paladins.
Implementing the Force Side Point System for non-Baadu

Please note that the Force Side Point system introduced for the Baadu might not be ideal for a normal Jedi. The WEG Dark Side Point system does the job quite well, as far as Jedi are concerned. If gm's wish to implement the Force Side Point system for non-Baadu, bear in mind that the Dark Side of the Force is MUCH easier to turn to. Jedi who were totally pure before can be turned to the Dark Side, just as easily as someone who's intentions for the Force were “questionable.”

Editorial: The Baadu Jedi have been a topic of much debate on the Star Wars RPG Mailing List. Many people feel that the Baadu is a cheap way of allowing Jedi to commit evil acts. Jedi should never be allowed to do evil without consequence. That goes against everything the Force is about. The major component in Force using, which keeps a Jedi in check, is his emotional connection to the Force. You take this away and things just become ridiculous. On the other side of the argument are those who feel the nature of the Force is dynamic and always in motion. Nothing, especially something as fluid as the Force, is so cut and dry as to allow only two sides; there has to be a middle ground. Whether you love them or hate them is you’re decision, but it is the GM’s decision to allow them in a game.

I particularly like how they specifically state how VERY RARE these individuals are, as well as how very difficult the path they walk is. That should DEFINITELY be taken into account when considering whether or not to allow one in a campaign.

[garhkal]

[Jedi Skyler]

For a GM to allow a player to play a character following this Force path, and do it PROPERLY, they need to be willing to watch the player UBER closely. Using that method of atonement removes ONE 'Force Side' point; it really should be EXTREMELY easy for these characters to gain these points, which would require them to walk an even finer razor's edge than a Jedi Battle Master or a practitioner of Vapaad. These people are supposed to be completely neutral; that means they aren't supposed to be running around helping the Rebellion defeat the Empire...they're simply not supposed to care about that stuff.

If a GM is running the game correctly, the player is gonna have their hands full trying to keep from getting those Force Side points; they should be spending so much concentration on that they don't have time for anything else.

But, of course, there are GMs out there who will allow a character to run this like a Jedi, and won't dole out the Force Side points properly, and therefore won't be ruling on this character in the manner in which it was meant to be overseen.

[lurker]

Well even me with my leaning towards allowing differing outlooks of Jedi that approach 'gray', I can see where this would be WAY to easy to abuse ... A Jedi that tortures an Imp officer just to maintain a balance looks too much like losing that balance for my taste.

That said, I do like idea of cleansing (as a function of atonement for a dark side point, not replacing atonement completely)
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

[garhkal]

To me, cleansing themselves should be a ritual done, not just 'something they can do' as part n parcel of their day to day activities.
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[Naaman]

Promoting "neutrality" is the opposite of heroic and fantastical. A "grey Jedi" is just an excuse to let loose in character. Which is fine, if the GM wants to run his game that way. Why shouuldnt a group be able to decide that a game is more fun if Force lightning is not exclusive to the dark side? Untraditional is cool if thats what peoplevwant to play.

But I dont see it jiving with canon.

[DB 2.0]

For me "Grey Jedi" is a philosophy thing not an "Alignment" Thing or a Game Mechanic Thing. where a Jedi denies and eventually banishes his Anger, Fear, Hatred and so on a Grey Jedi excepts them, controls them, eventually overcomes them and dose not them master him.