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Psychological Effects
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Garhkal raises a good question.

We could go to the movies for some insight on how to handle these scenarios.

In particular, when Padme asks Anakin "are you going to use your Jedi mind trick on me?" He responds "that only works on the weak minded."

Some have inferred that Jabba was "immune" by virtue of his species, but Obi-Wan also told Luke right off the bat that "the Force can be a powerful influence on the weak minded." I would estimate Jabba to be at PC level of power (major villain). Also, if I'm not mistaken, didn't someone manage to mind trick Jabba in the EU? Proof that he's not immune, if we want to use EU as a canonical reference.

Watto makes the remark that being a toydarian makes him immune (or at least resistant) to the mind trick. This might be enough to give his species a bonus to resist (or out right immunity) or it might be inferred that a mind trick is not effective when money is on the line, but might work at other times.


Looking in the aliens PDF, both Hutts and Toydarians gain a significant bonus to resist those powers..

Quote:
Force Resistance: Hutts have an innate defense against
Force-based mind manipulation techniques and roll double
their Perception dice to resist such attacks. However,
because of this, Hutts are not believed to be able to learn
Force skills.

Quote:
Force Resistance: Toydarians are resistant to Force powers
that utilize the Sense skill, and receive a +3D bonus to any
Perception or control rolls made to resist these powers. Any
Sense powers used against a Toydarian that do not grant a
resistance roll have their sense difficulty increased by +10.



Naaman wrote:

I also like Whill's method of giving CP rewards for good role playing. That might be incentive enough, if the bonus is large enough.


Unlike Whill though, i Do like keeping both the stick and carrot. Some players just don't respond to carrots only.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right. What I was actually going for was a canonical reference to the effectiveness of mind tricks. If we can assume that the mind trick would fail against Padme, then can we assume that a typical PC would be able to resist mind tricks in general?

Maybe the difficulty could be sufficoently high to make it hard to use against heroic characters. Or better yet, characters that have Force points (heroes/major villains) get some lind of buffer againnst things that otherwise work on "mooks."

Just some thoughts....
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
This way, the PC isn't forced into any particular action, but will tend to act in ways that are appropriate for his mental state.

It's been a while since I put much thought into this concept, but I believe my original intent was to limit the rules to actions over which the character had no control, that were mandatory actions. It's one thing for a character to feel hatred, but still be in control; it's quite another for that character to be so enraged that he will automatically attack the target of his anger. The same with fear; being afraid and still doing your job is different from being so terrified as to be unable to function, apart from running away.

My goal here was to allow players to role-play their character's emotional state, while providing rules for those situations where the character's rational side (i.e. the player) is not in control.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be careful in scenarios like this, especially if the player loses control of the character and while the character is in auto-behavior mode, gets killed.

Other than that, I can say that I always hate hate hate when my fighter who is a veteran of many wars and has slain giants ant trolls and vampires finds himself cowering in the corner after some scronny wizard casts fear on him (other effects are more reasonable, but making warrior types especially vulnerable to fear effects by way of a weak will save has never sat well with me).

I think that to make this ultimately fun in the first place, you'll have to spend plenty of time hyping up the fearsome encounter, so that the players will have enough respect for the scenario that they will hopefully embrace the psychilogical effect on their character and agree that it shouls apply.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In the spirit of the interaction skill descriptions with respect to PCs starting with 1e, I've always shied away from anything forcing PCs to behave in certain ways. I'm a little more on board with with the penalties on PCs in certain mental states, but I still try avoid those too in general.

You are not the first to raise this objection. For myself, I don't see why requiring someone to roleplay the result of a failed Willpower roll is any less roleplaying than requiring someone to roleplay the result of a failed Con, Sneak or Dodge roll. I doubt any player comes into a game hoping to fail a roll, yet failing rolls and coping with the results is a central tenet of roleplaying. In this case, I'm not looking to dictate mundane emotional states; the idea is to present a ruleset specifically for situation in which the character is not in control.

Just as an example, if Luke Skywalker were a PC, he was pretty adamant in the Throne Room battle that he didn't want to fight Darth Vader, yet he was goaded into doing just that. Twice. Both times, after an initial loss of control, he settled down and got himself under control, but there was still that initial moment where he behaved irrationally.

I personally have never done something that extreme, but I have had several moments in my life where I acted out of anger or fear, then was left cleaning up the damage and wondering what the hell I had been thinking to do that in the first place.

I have no problem with allowing for a safety net, such as a last-second Willpower roll (at very high difficulty, where the PC can spend CPs or FPs to try and stop themselves) to keep the character from ending up in DSP territory, or getting killed. However, I don't want that to translate into script immunity. In fact, if real life is any indicator, getting killed because you got angry or frightened and did something stupid is more the norm than getting killed while you were calm and rational.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Right. What I was actually going for was a canonical reference to the effectiveness of mind tricks. If we can assume that the mind trick would fail against Padme, then can we assume that a typical PC would be able to resist mind tricks in general?

A more appropriate use would be the taunting done by the Sith in lightsaber combat. Notice how, apart from Darth Maul, all the Sith Lords have a tendency to mock their opponents during battle, using insight from the Force to identify their opponent's mental weaknesses and capitalize on them. In ROTJ, Vader did just that, using the Force to identify Leia as Luke's weakness and goad him into a fight (not that it turned out all that great for Vader, but he did succeed in his original intent).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I would be careful in scenarios like this, especially if the player loses control of the character and while the character is in auto-behavior mode, gets killed.

Other than that, I can say that I always hate hate hate when my fighter who is a veteran of many wars and has slain giants ant trolls and vampires finds himself cowering in the corner after some scrawny wizard casts fear on him (other effects are more reasonable, but making warrior types especially vulnerable to fear effects by way of a weak will save has never sat well with me).

I think that to make this ultimately fun in the first place, you'll have to spend plenty of time hyping up the fearsome encounter, so that the players will have enough respect for the scenario that they will hopefully embrace the psychological effect on their character and agree that it should apply.

RPG designers always seem to forget the fight-or-flight dichotomy of fear. My thinking has always been that a Fear effect would make most characters run away. However, if they have nowhere to run, backing a fearful character into a corner switches that fear from flight to fight, and the character attacks like a cornered rat (Frenzy, maybe?) As I pointed out in the previous post about the ROTJ lightsaber battle, just because you succeeded in provoking a psychological effect on your opponent does not mean it will have the overall result in your favor.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Right. What I was actually going for was a canonical reference to the effectiveness of mind tricks. If we can assume that the mind trick would fail against Padme, then can we assume that a typical PC would be able to resist mind tricks in general?

Maybe the difficulty could be sufficoently high to make it hard to use against heroic characters. Or better yet, characters that have Force points (heroes/major villains) get some lind of buffer againnst things that otherwise work on "mooks."

Just some thoughts....


The reasons PC's are more 'resistant" than the general populus is that
A) their stats are higher, so in general their Per (Or Know for willpower) will be higher)
B) they have CP and FP to spend to boost their rolls..

And how is the Difficulty for these powers not already sufficiently 'hard'??
Affect mind, 3 power roll, so needs 3 actions or 3 rounds to get it off.
Control roll is Very Easy for perceptions;
Easy for memories;
Moderate for conclusions.
Modified by proximity.

For altering a Perception (this is not the droid you are looking for) would at least be a 7 roll (Very easy +2)

The sense roll has a TN of The target's control or Perception roll, which since PCs in general have 3 or MORE D compared to just the 2d of a mook, AND has CP/FP to spend on that, can easily jack it up to where the Jedi using it has to hit a 25 or more.

And for the Alter roll its, Very Easy for slight, momentary misperceptions, minor changes to distant memories, or if the character doesn't care one way or another.
Easy for brief, visible phenomena, for memories less than a year old, or if the character feels only minor emotion regarding the
conclusion he is reaching.
Moderate for short hallucinations, for memories less than a day old, or if the target has strict orders about the conclusion. Difficult for slight disguises to facial features, hallucinations which can be sensed with two senses (sight and sound, for example), for memories
less than a minute old, or if the matter involving the conclusion is very important to the target.
Very Difficult for hallucinations which can be sensed by all five senses, if the memory change is a major one, or if the logic is absolutely clear and coming to the wrong conclusion is virtually impossible.

Compare that to the Dark side power Control mind.
First off, using it gives and AUTO dark side point, and an additonal one if the controlled person does something evil.
The control roll is a BASE of a moderate (11-15) modified by relationship (which can be anything up to a +30 if you are an alien!)
Targets with an affinity for the force (Force points or powers) may make an opposed control or perception roll, and select IT if that roll is higher than the base difficulty.
The Sense roll is Easy if the target is a jedi and they have become a dark sider.. Moderate if they are light side, modified by proximity.
The Alter roll is based on the # of targets the dark sider is wanting to control AND whether they are either willing OR unwilling, as well as whether they are fellow dark siders or light siders.
If used on fellow dark siders they can control up to potentially 8 targets, with a very difficult roll (assuming they are willing), or Heroic if unwilling.
Only up to 3 light siders can be controlled, and this roll is at least a moderate as well.

Imo those are already difficult enough.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I see affect mind as being "too difficult" to pull off even on the most obtuse of targets (largely due to the MAPs). Although, I speculate merely based on the films, whether the mind trick is "supposed" to work against heroic characters at all.

We've certainly never seen it affect anyone other than a mook, unless you want to assume that Boss Nass is "heroic."

In any case, affect mind is one of those powers that I feel should be severely limited in how it can effect heroic characters. For example, if the BBEG is a dark Jedi, as soon as he becomes aware of who the PCs are, he could just mind trick them into all kinds of mayhem, like making them believe that each other are mortal enemies, etc. Might even be worth spending a FP on (they are free if he calls on the darkside, after all).

Its honestly mind boggling to me why we never see bad guys use this power... I'm kinda tempted to house rule it as a "lightside" power which doesn't work if the character has any DSPs (would be one way to explain why Luke's disnt work on Jabba, even though someone else was able to do it, IIRC).
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dislike removing powers like this from being able to 'affect' PCs while PC's can still use them themselves.. Strikes me the same way as saying a PC can't be affected by the "Insta kill portion of the Silent strike martial art special maneuver, only the Insta-KO portion. BUT PC's can learn it and use the insta kill part themselves"/
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I dislike removing powers like this from being able to 'affect' PCs while PC's can still use them themselves.. Strikes me the same way as saying a PC can't be affected by the "Insta kill portion of the Silent strike martial art special maneuver, only the Insta-KO portion. BUT PC's can learn it and use the insta kill part themselves"/

I agree. Any exemption from psychological effects on PCs (as far as this rule is concerned) would be the result of said PC spending CP to improve their Willpower skill to better resist.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I see your points.

Then again, GM can fudge any roll he wants. I rather think this is one of the most important options available when it comes to telling a story.

I once played in a d&d campaign where I went threough three characters in four sessions because DM rolled three 20s in a row on an attack... all were attacks made by mooks, btw, while the campaign 8th-9th level. Incidentally, the first of those characters happeened to make one of those three 20s in a row rolls once agains some other mook.

IMO, the PC is far more important to thestory than even a major vllain, so I'd reason that drama trumps rules in some cases where it is simply "too easy" or "too lucky" on the part of the bad guy. I do it all the time in favor of the bad guys for the sake of player enjoyment; Id be willing to do the same for the good guys if it makes the over all game more enjoyable and campaign more memorable. Aaffect mind is one of those powers that kinda spoils suspension of disbelief, IMHO, since the bad guys would at least attempt it wvery chance they got, yet don't. YMMV.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I dislike removing powers like this from being able to 'affect' PCs while PC's can still use them themselves.. Strikes me the same way as saying a PC can't be affected by the "Insta kill portion of the Silent strike martial art special maneuver, only the Insta-KO portion. BUT PC's can learn it and use the insta kill part themselves"/

I agree. Any exemption from psychological effects on PCs (as far as this rule is concerned) would be the result of said PC spending CP to improve their Willpower skill to better resist.


Or wounding said force user before he gets all 3 powers UP, causing the prior power he DID activate to drop. Ergo no getting AM used on them.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Or wounding said force user before he gets all 3 powers UP, causing the prior power he DID activate to drop. Ergo no getting AM used on them.

That too. Although I did come up with rules for Dun Moch (basically the Sith's Force-Assisted taunting technique) which basically made it a single Sense roll to generate a bonus that stacked with Intimidation or Persuasion, so while AM would be the approach more likely to succeed, Dun Moch would be the safer one to use in mid-combat...
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