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KageRyu
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Dude, don't go off on me. You're the one tripping out on gravity wells because you don't like how they are applied in the SWU. Well, if you have a better idea, here is the time and place. Don't just tell me an idea doesn't work; throw out some options. Discussing gravity wells and their effects on hyperspace travel is on topic because a key portion of my original post was about the feasibility of putting an object into hyperspace in orbit around a planet. This is a concept which already has official status, per the Hyperspace Orbital Scanner, which I have referenced previously. You obviously have some knowledge on the subject, and I would appreciate if you would apply that knowledge to the optional rule concept I just posted, as opposed to getting defensive over minutiae and semantics. |
I had already redacted and rephrased my last post. I didn't just say that your idead didn't work, I did say I had issues with it and why, and as I have tried to say repeatedly, I was simply voicing my concerns over it - despite it being official to the RPG I never liked the way it was presented (much the same as I can't stand Yasimilari, or the dreaded "P" word). I never tripped out on Gravity Wells, and it was exactly the heavy handed use of symantics and minutia in regards to gravity wells that got me defensive in the first place, as they were way outside the context of what was aid. I did provide a lot of other ideas for satelite warfare, GPSing, and such initially, I really don't have any for the Hyperspace Satelite concept. I did not mean for my posts to be tripping out on anyone. I do like the idea you had mentioned of a small Electronic Warfare, Surveilance, or Command and Control ship that keeps making short hyperspace jumps in a battle to be hard to target, but provides oversight and inteligence services - I believe youd had suggested unmanned or droid operated, though I feel at least an officer or two would fit to oversee those clankers. Another option would be a stealthed satelite with Cloaking tech, which exists in Star Wars, but is rare from all accounts. Obviously such a satelite would be expensive and most likely primarily military.
With the Concept of a Hyperspace automated system, I feel it would be more appropriate as a method for Galactic Positioning. I would have fewer reservations about the rammifications of it. While the idea of "Fixed points in hyperspace has been explored in other Sci-Fi properties in the way of Lighthouses and Buoys, and are interesting concepts, I personally feel they fly in the face of how Hyperspace works in SW...though the development of a new technology is certainly not unreasonable. One thing that seems constant in all editions of Star Wars The Role Playing Game is that vessels or Objects need to reach lightspeed to "enter" hyperspace - and when coupled with the pecularities of how Hyperspace is defined, makes hyperspace seem more like the failing expected of physics once the speed of light is surpassed, and less like a dimension... (Star Wars The Roleplaying Game Pages 59-61, The Star Wars Sourcebook Page 6, 2nd Edition Rulebook Pages 110-112, 2nd Edition R&E pages 116-119) so to get an object into Hyperspace without traveling at lightspeed (which poses serious issues in planetary orbit) first it would need to be addressed how to accelerate the object to lightspeed without moving? Perhaps a phase acceleration of it's molecualr or atomic structure?
In the rephrased post, I do comment about the Hyperspace difficulties idea, and I think with work it is a great idea. As I already stated in an earlier post attempting to diffuse the arguments (which was met with more minutia and symantic twisting) part of the issue is that, not just the Role Playing Game Mechanics, but the Star Wars Universe is intentionally vague, and much has been filled in with contradictory information over the almost 40 years it's existed - and much of that was from "official" sources (anyone else remember Darth Vader's personal guard? That's right the Black Stormtrooper Armor with Lightsabers?). I think some enhancved rules for handling Atmosphere, Near Atmosphere, and orbital game mechanics could add a lot of Depth and flavor to D6 in general.
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | I know from personal experience that it takes two to argue. I also know that if you are going to get into it with Fallon, you need to be prepared to go the distance.  |
I'll take that as a compliment. | crmcneill wrote: |
The conversation may have gotten off topic, but the point remains that when a ship is trying to get far enough outside of a gravity well to safely jump, it is not a question of getting outside of the gravity well so much as it is how far up the "slope" of the well a ship must travel before a hyperspace jump can be done safely. |
Exactly. Dragging this from the theoretical to the practical, that "slope" correlates to an actual acceleration in realspace. Maybe something like .5G as a wild shot in the dark. Now a ship or speck of dust won't have the mass or density to achieve that steep a slope or strong an acceleration from gravity, unless it's traveling at relativistic velocities in realspace. That's why a ship is not going to keep itself from jumping. | crmcneill wrote: |
-Ships must travel a minimum of 60 (or whatever number you feel is appropriate) units away from a planet to make a hyperspace jump without interference from the planet's gravity well. The minimum safe distance varies depending on the type of planet (various factors determining gravity well).
-Ships may attempt to make jumps closer to a planet, but for every unit of distance below the minimum safe distance, there is an equal increase in the jump's difficulty (Example: if the minimum safe distance is 60 units, and a ship attempts a hyperspace jump at 40 units, the difficulty for that jump increases by 20 points).
-Rather than saying that a ship jumping into hyperspace too close to a planet automatically creates a catastrophic event on said planet, have the catastrophic event be the result of a wild-dice failure or something, so that it gives the PCs some room to maneuver ("You could try to jump to hyperspace from low orbit, but it's insanely risky), and also addresses the backstory conflict.
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As I understand it, the gravity well trips the hyperdrive safety shutoff, but is different from the mass shadow with which a ship in hyperspace can actually collide. So, if for example someone's hyper route takes them through the lovely planet Earth, their hyperdrive will automatically disengage when it passes deep enough into Earth's gravity well to trip the safety system, which is well above the surface of the planet in realspace and just shy of the mass shadow in hyperspace. Since all worlds are not equal in mass and density, I would assume that the safety system also measures rate of change. If that were true, one would have to (illegally) disable or adjust their ship's hyperdrive safeties to allow it to jump from within the safety zone of whatever arbitrary G rating it's set to. That being done, I think the ideas are spot on.
I could easily be wrong here, or canon could self-contradict, though, so take this with a grain of salt. [quote="crmcneill"]
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KageRyu
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | As I understand it, the gravity well trips the hyperdrive safety shutoff, but is different from the mass shadow with which a ship in hyperspace can actually collide. So, if for example someone's hyper route takes them through the lovely planet Earth, their hyperdrive will automatically disengage when it passes deep enough into Earth's gravity well to trip the safety system, which is well above the surface of the planet in realspace and just shy of the mass shadow in hyperspace. Since all worlds are not equal in mass and density, I would assume that the safety system also measures rate of change. If that were true, one would have to (illegally) disable or adjust their ship's hyperdrive safeties to allow it to jump from within the safety zone of whatever arbitrary G rating it's set to. That being done, I think the ideas are spot on.
I could easily be wrong here, or canon could self-contradict, though, so take this with a grain of salt. |
I would interpret the effect in a similar fashion ( in one of the RPG books - don't ask me which as I cannot find the reference right now - it does mention gravity wells of planets and stars tripping the safety shut off of hyperdrives and forcing them back into realspace). I have also considered that the gravity might interfere with the Hyperspace field itself on some level - as the gravity well becomes more intense it distorts the hyperspace field of the ship, knocking it out of Hyperspace. While there is sufficient source and theoretical information to support this view as well, most of it is from EU or even non-Star Wars properties and sources (but still makes an interesting hook for older hyperdrives or less advanced civilizations). I'd say for either case, rather than just an arbitrary G rating, we use a value based on a mass and density of object whose shadow would do real and significant damage to a capital ship (read "destroying a capital ship on collision"), say any M class Iron-Ore asteroid of speeder size or larger? It might be that such an asteroid of Character scale might do sufficient damage too, let's say a relative mass of about 5 metric tons or more, which might yield a gravity below the 0.05 G range (which seems insignificant, but at superluminal velocities would be near atomic levels of destruction). Starfighters, being smaller and more frail, might even have more sensitive hyperdrives?
For mere reference and consideration-
Phobos has an aproximate Density of 1.88, with a surface area of 6,100km^2 and a radius of about 11km, netting an aproximate gravity of 0.008 Gs, but I feel it would interfere with Hyperdrive in very close proximity. A sliding scale should efinately be used, and the G's should effect distance... if we go with the D6's unwritten exponential Die Code, and use 60 Units as a baseline for 1G worlds, then Phobos being 1/10th of that might have a gravity well of between 7 and 15 Units at which it interfere's with hyperdrive?
Ok, too much real science creeping in, but thoughts, ideas? Would like to make some real notes and game mechanics for this that are agreeable and still enjoyable but based on not-so arbitrary numbers if possible.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, revisiting the Satelite in Hyperspace idea to present some alternative ideas for a satelite that uses or exploits hyperspace in some way defensively, here's some thoughts that just hit me:
•The GPS/Sensor/Surveilance satelite could be an unremarkable satelite, and as was said these are probably dirt cheap in the Star Wars universe (certainly easier to deploy than in real life). It would orbit and function as anormal satelite.
•It does have a rudimentary Hyperdrive engine for emergency use. When the satelite is threatened, attacked, or targeted, it initiates a short emergency jump, either to a different orbit entirely, or to the far side of the planet.
•This would require a rudimentary nav-computer, but even many back up nav-computers can store up to 10 jumps, so the Satelite can have 10 preplaned escape jumps to avert attack/destruction.
• By deploying the satelite into the relatively Gravity Neutral zones of the lagrange points around a planet (which planets typicly have several of) this would allow a still relatively close orbital path, but prevent the Gravity from inhibiting the emergency jump. Also by keeping the emergency jumps to similar gravity neutral lagrange points, or to temporarily higher orbit in Deep Space, it would keep the needed hyperdrive small, and the needs of the Nav Computer minute.
• Very possibly, such a satelite could be given a rudimentary Droid brain to evaluate the need for a jump, perform the jump, and decide when it's safe to jump back to Geo-Synchronous orbit - essentially making the Satelite more of a really advanced, orbital, geographic Survey Probe Droid.
Even with these features, the cost would still be relatively low in the grand scale, and these could be easily manufactured and deployed using already existing materials common throughout the galaxy - it sticks withtechnology already in use, allows for a Hyperspace defense system for the satelite as I feel was the initial goal, and carefully skirts around the whole issues anyone might have with Hyperspace technology, navigation issues, gravity wells, and the ruby slippers.
Not saying it's a better way to do it, and never really said the other way was wrong or wouldn't work (just I had issues with it for various reasons), but here it is as an idea for alternatives.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Those i could see more than a sat stuck in hyperspace using hypercomms to send their signals down to the planet..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | As I understand it, the gravity well trips the hyperdrive safety shutoff, but is different from the mass shadow with which a ship in hyperspace can actually collide. So, if for example someone's hyper route takes them through the lovely planet Earth, their hyperdrive will automatically disengage when it passes deep enough into Earth's gravity well to trip the safety system, which is well above the surface of the planet in realspace and just shy of the mass shadow in hyperspace. Since all worlds are not equal in mass and density, I would assume that the safety system also measures rate of change. If that were true, one would have to (illegally) disable or adjust their ship's hyperdrive safeties to allow it to jump from within the safety zone of whatever arbitrary G rating it's set to. That being done, I think the ideas are spot on. |
I was thinking something similar; that stock hyperdrives are equipped with cut-outs that absolutely will not allow a hyperdrive to engage while within a gravity field of a certain strength. However, in the SWU, since characters and NPCs are never satisfied with stock, a hyperdrive could be equipped with some sort of emergency cut-out that either shuts the "trip" mechanism down completely or lowers the setting sufficient to allow for a more dangerous jump. That's exactly the sort of mod one might see on a smuggling vessel or an Alliance Special Operations ship, and as a result is probably highly illegal.
| KageRyu wrote: | Ok, revisiting the Satelite in Hyperspace idea to present some alternative ideas for a satelite that uses or exploits hyperspace in some way defensively, here's some thoughts that just hit me:
•The GPS/Sensor/Surveilance satelite could be an unremarkable satelite, and as was said these are probably dirt cheap in the Star Wars universe (certainly easier to deploy than in real life). It would orbit and function as anormal satelite.
•It does have a rudimentary Hyperdrive engine for emergency use. When the satelite is threatened, attacked, or targeted, it initiates a short emergency jump, either to a different orbit entirely, or to the far side of the planet.
•This would require a rudimentary nav-computer, but even many back up nav-computers can store up to 10 jumps, so the Satelite can have 10 preplaned escape jumps to avert attack/destruction. |
The problem I see here is that modern GPS satellites are so effective because they travel in set orbits using precise signal broadcasts to generate accurate navigational data on the ground. A satellite performing a random jump as you describe would be out of operation for some time after the jump as it acquires its new location and begins broadcasting accurate nav data (hopefully). Murphy's Law dictates that, if this were to happen, it would happen at the time when accurate navigational data is most needed on the ground.
On top of that, navigational satellites function by broadcasting an active signal to a passive receiver unit on the planet, and anything broadcasting an active signal is automatically more likely to be detected on sensors. Something like what you propose would be very effective for, say, an advanced surveillance satellite, which can easily function just off passive sensors, and could likely be programmed with enough intelligence to be as evasive as you suggest.
I must admit seeing some irony in your suggestion that the satellite could jump to the far side of the planet to escape an attack, in that this seems to fly in the face of two of your own objections to my hyperspace-based concept (specifically, hyperspace jumps in gravity wells, and the feasibility of making a jump with a tight angle).
| Quote: | | • By deploying the satelite into the relatively Gravity Neutral zones of the lagrange points around a planet (which planets typicly have several of) this would allow a still relatively close orbital path, but prevent the Gravity from inhibiting the emergency jump. Also by keeping the emergency jumps to similar gravity neutral lagrange points, or to temporarily higher orbit in Deep Space, it would keep the needed hyperdrive small, and the needs of the Nav Computer minute. |
The only problem I see here is that, by their very nature, a planet's Lagrange points would most likely be the most crowded locations in a planetary orbit, given that they are, in essence, gravity neutral anchorages.
| Quote: | • Very possibly, such a satelite could be given a rudimentary Droid brain to evaluate the need for a jump, perform the jump, and decide when it's safe to jump back to Geo-Synchronous orbit - essentially making the Satelite more of a really advanced, orbital, geographic Survey Probe Droid.
Even with these features, the cost would still be relatively low in the grand scale, and these could be easily manufactured and deployed using already existing materials common throughout the galaxy - it sticks withtechnology already in use, allows for a Hyperspace defense system for the satelite as I feel was the initial goal, and carefully skirts around the whole issues anyone might have with Hyperspace technology, navigation issues, gravity wells, and the ruby slippers.
Not saying it's a better way to do it, and never really said the other way was wrong or wouldn't work (just I had issues with it for various reasons), but here it is as an idea for alternatives. |
You have definitely given me some food for thought, and I like your suggestions insofar as applying them to a different kind of satellite. The main problem is that your suggestions do not work well with the way GPS satellites function in the real world. They send out a constant signal that is then picked up by passive units on the ground, which is then used to generate extremely accurate navigation data. The navigation data, however, is dependent on a constant signal from a specific location. That means that the satellite doing the broadcasting has to travel in a specific orbit while constantly broadcasting an active comm signal. All this translates into a sitting duck in space, just waiting for a starfighter to come along and blast it out of the sky.
Now, in the real world, these satellites are relatively safe and secure as they orbit far overhead, out of reach of all but a few experimental weapons in the hands of the world's major powers. In the SWU, however, intercepting objects in orbit is practically commonplace. Tech wise, the satellites might as well be orbiting the planet a few hundred feet off the ground, where they can be shot down by anything back to and including a WWI-era biplane. To place a satellite in orbit around a planet in such a way that it can still perform its mission and remain (mostly) out of the enemy's reach requires something new. Hence my proposal.
I understand your opposition, but your disagreement seems based mostly on a differing viewpoint as to how hyperspace functions in the SWU, and if there is one thing I have learned here, it is that no one every agrees with anyone 100%.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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As for the undefended satellites, I could see small defense stations which could have planetary navigation capabilities built in. These stations would have shields, weaponry, and possibly fighter squadrons. Perhaps even, the planet below is able to encapsulate them in some sort of planetary generated shield, protecting them from most external assaults. These types of satellites may not be on most frontier worlds, but it would be less likely to be easily destroyed except by an appropriate attack force.
This idea is sort of borrowed from SWTOR, which has "Defense Satellites" which are capable of launching fighters and are generally deployed around larger space stations. Equipping them with anti-fighter & anti-capital scale weaponry wouldn't be much of a stretch. Nor would shielding them.
| Quote: | | • Very possibly, such a satelite could be given a rudimentary Droid brain to evaluate the need for a jump, perform the jump, and decide when it's safe to jump back to Geo-Synchronous orbit - essentially making the Satelite more of a really advanced, orbital, geographic Survey Probe Droid. |
With much of Star Wars technology being more advanced than that of our modern world, we could also consider that a planet could have solar powered probe droids that orbit about the planet. These droids, if they're character scale would be extremely hard to hit with star ship weaponry, which would be a defense of its own accord, not to mention cheap. It wouldn't be a big deal if someone say accidentally crashed into one of your planet's probe network, because for a couple thousand credits you can replace the droid. And, on top of that, sending something up into orbit in Star Wars, is not the same sort of multimillion dollar investment that it is here on Earth. They just pop the thing into a freighter and deploy it at an appropriate distance. All the droid would require is a sensor suite along with a transmitter of similar power to a military grade comlink, which has surface to orbit range.
Probe droids are small, cheap, and can be intelligent enough to attempt to evade incoming fire. The Viper probot (Imperial probe droid) is only 14,000. And could probably be manufactured cheaper than that by modifying the droid's base equipment. Program it with a dodge +1D and fighter craft are going to be looking at a 10D difficulty to hit the thing. Which isn't bad.
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KageRyu
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
The problem I see here is that modern GPS satellites are so effective because they travel in set orbits using precise signal broadcasts to generate accurate navigational data on the ground. A satellite performing a random jump as you describe would be out of operation for some time after the jump as it acquires its new location and begins broadcasting accurate nav data (hopefully). |
I wasn't thinking of the jumps as Random. I was thinking they would be pr-planned jumps (which has it's own sown sides). Given the precise nature of calculations for Hyperspace, I might be inclined to believe that the positioning data of the jump could be incorporated ito an algorythym of it's GPS - minimizing down time (I don't doubt there will be an interuption of some sort).
| Quote: | | I must admit seeing some irony in your suggestion that the satellite could jump to the far side of the planet to escape an attack, in that this seems to fly in the face of two of your own objections to my hyperspace-based concept (specifically, hyperspace jumps in gravity wells, and the feasibility of making a jump with a tight angle). |
Actuallty as I had said before, the tight angle and turning in hyperspace was not one of my chief concerns with the hyperspace satelite idea.
| Quote: | | The only problem I see here is that, by their very nature, a planet's Lagrange points would most likely be the most crowded locations in a planetary orbit, given that they are, in essence, gravity neutral anchorages. |
True, hadn't really put thought into that.
| Quote: | | You have definitely given me some food for thought, and I like your suggestions insofar as applying them to a different kind of satellite. The main problem is that your suggestions do not work well with the way GPS satellites function in the real world. They send out a constant signal that is then picked up by passive units on the ground, which is then used to generate extremely accurate navigation data. The navigation data, however, is dependent on a constant signal from a specific location. That means that the satellite doing the broadcasting has to travel in a specific orbit while constantly broadcasting an active comm signal. All this translates into a sitting duck in space, just waiting for a starfighter to come along and blast it out of the sky. |
Some of the issues with how GPS functions in the real world is also based on the limits of our technology. Newer phones with a form of GPS are not relient on the orbitting satelites, but on a central data server (which obtains information from satelites) - thes are still relatively experimental, but is the way things are heading. Given the advanced computer and droid technology in Star Wars, I think that workarounds could reasonably be said to exist. For example, if the satelite primarily collects the Positioning data and geographic information and store it internally, it coul dbe possible for it to use Passive coms, and instead have a ground side system or facility provide the active uplink to the sat, retrieve the data, and then house it, along with all the helpful GPS programming apps groundside - the devises (be they handhelds, droids, computers) could access the data from a centralized (or even a distributed) groundside location - with the satelite being mainly for the gathering of the data. There's a few other ways to go too.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | | Probe droids are small, cheap, and can be intelligent enough to attempt to evade incoming fire. The Viper probot (Imperial probe droid) is only 14,000. And could probably be manufactured cheaper than that by modifying the droid's base equipment. Program it with a dodge +1D and fighter craft are going to be looking at a 10D difficulty to hit the thing. Which isn't bad. |
I have actually used networks of probe droids in many of my games to provide positioning and surveillance data. Of course, I have always liked the look of the Probe Droid.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
Probe droids are small, cheap, and can be intelligent enough to attempt to evade incoming fire. The Viper probot (Imperial probe droid) is only 14,000. And could probably be manufactured cheaper than that by modifying the droid's base equipment. Program it with a dodge +1D and fighter craft are going to be looking at a 10D difficulty to hit the thing. Which isn't bad. |
Probe droids may be cheep, but do they have the power to stay out in space continuously broadcasting for a while??
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | I wasn't thinking of the jumps as Random. I was thinking they would be pr-planned jumps (which has it's own sown sides). Given the precise nature of calculations for Hyperspace, I might be inclined to believe that the positioning data of the jump could be incorporated ito an algorythym of it's GPS - minimizing down time (I don't doubt there will be an interuption of some sort). |
Unfortunately, that adds an additional layer of complexity into both systems. It's ultimately simpler all around to base the navigation data off of a constant signal being transmitted from what is essentially an unreachable location. Your suggestions would work fine as, say, version 1.5.9 of the directional transponder described in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, but I'm looking at version 2.0
| Quote: | | Some of the issues with how GPS functions in the real world is also based on the limits of our technology. Newer phones with a form of GPS are not relient on the orbitting satelites, but on a central data server (which obtains information from satelites) - thes are still relatively experimental, but is the way things are heading. |
But that doesn't change the fact that the GPS is still dependent on signals generated by an outside source. That sort of system may work fine in a relatively peaceful environment like the United States, but in a combat environment, the cell towers and central data server would be primary targets, especially if military forces are depending on them for navigation and communication
| Quote: | | Given the advanced computer and droid technology in Star Wars, I think that workarounds could reasonably be said to exist. For example, if the satelite primarily collects the Positioning data and geographic information and store it internally, it coul dbe possible for it to use Passive coms, and instead have a ground side system or facility provide the active uplink to the sat, retrieve the data, and then house it, along with all the helpful GPS programming apps groundside - the devises (be they handhelds, droids, computers) could access the data from a centralized (or even a distributed) groundside location - with the satelite being mainly for the gathering of the data. There's a few other ways to go too. |
Again, that works fine in a relatively peaceful, trouble-free environment with multiple civilian and commercial applications, but not so well in a combat situation on a contested planet. Any permanent facility on the ground can be targeted and destroyed, and then the entire network is useless. By putting the navigation drone / droid / satellite into hyperspace, it becomes almost impossible to locate, let alone target and destroy, and since the technology to place a satellite in orbit around a planet while in hyperspace is an official part of the SWU, there is no reason that scientists on both sides of the fence would not be exploring other applications. Something like this would be a natural result. I'm not saying that every planet would have one; most planets would likely have a more conventional real-space satellite network. However, the military advantage of having a precision navigation system operating from a location where it can't be shot down is an obvious one.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: |
Probe droids are small, cheap, and can be intelligent enough to attempt to evade incoming fire. The Viper probot (Imperial probe droid) is only 14,000. And could probably be manufactured cheaper than that by modifying the droid's base equipment. Program it with a dodge +1D and fighter craft are going to be looking at a 10D difficulty to hit the thing. Which isn't bad. |
Probe droids may be cheep, but do they have the power to stay out in space continuously broadcasting for a while?? |
Solar powered ones would have plenty of energy.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Can they be made solar powered?
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:11 am Post subject: |
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Well, they have solar power converters for ships in the tramp freighter's guide. Why wouldn't they have something smaller for running a droid that doesn't need nearly as much power? Or maybe some sort of miniature fusion generator built in. The power generators in most Star Wars survival kits don't have any time limits set on them. How hard would it be to engineer one to keep a single droid running?
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | By putting the navigation drone / droid / satellite into hyperspace, it becomes almost impossible to locate, let alone target and destroy, |
But that is incorrect. As it says in all three editions of Star Wars, all things in Hyperspace exist in realspace as well, hence how collisions can happen in the first place. Additionally, in the imperial Sourcebook they have weapons specificly designed to destroy vessels and craft in Hyperspace, one such weapon is Hyperspace Pulsemass Generator, Imperial Sourcebook Page 67. Additionally, if and Interdictor, or similar vessel with Gravity Wells is involved in the assault it will nock the satelite ou of hyperspace.
Yes, anything I have suggested will eventually be targetd or can be in a war, that is the nature of war. I was not trying to provide an invincible method, just one with more survivability. I don't see those issue as probelsm with the ideas or concepts, it involves an extra effort to disable such systems, which increases survivability. I get why GPS is not targetd in real life, it does not need to keep being pointed out - but if we were at war with another nation with similar space capabilities it could and would be (though such a war would likely be nuclear). A ground based central hub certainly could be reinforced and defended, and a decentarlized set of hubs is actually the ideal type for warfare as it involves needing to take out numerous locations. However, I would point out the same issue you have with all of my suggestions (only working in time of peace - which really isn't the case) also exists for yours - as any asset that is a threat can be targeted - and even if the satelite were in hyperspcae and broadcasting data back to real space, it's location would thus become known (or it hyperpath that is) allowing for it to be targeted and destroyed using and number of tried and true methods of dealing with vessels in hyperspace. And just as the information written about the HOS says they can be placed, it also clearly states they can be tracked and serviced again with the PDV. So by no means would such a satelite be untouchable - it may last a few minutes longer than some of my suggestions, but doubtful by much. I'd also point out the HOS as described accessed, retrieved, and transmitted data using hyperspace relays from the Plexus network, and only from computers connected to the plexus hyperspace network that could be "seen in hyperspace" - liekwise any such system for GPS would need a similar system to broadcast and recieve data which means a planet creating it's own version of the Plexus Hyperspace network (a very expensive task as described in the ISB). This adds more layers of complexity and problems. Further, witht he satelite being in Hyperspace, it can not gather actual positioning data on the planet, as it can not "see" the planet, only the hyperspace shadow of the planet, and this would completely defeat the entire purpose of GPS.
| Quote: | | and since the technology to place a satellite in orbit around a planet while in hyperspace is an official part of the SWU, there is no reason that scientists on both sides of the fence would not be exploring other applications. Something like this would be a natural result. I'm not saying that every planet would have one; most planets would likely have a more conventional real-space satellite network. However, the military advantage of having a precision navigation system operating from a location where it can't be shot down is an obvious one. |
While it may be "official" in the Game Books (though the entry says theoretical and mentions 1 prototype) having just re-read it I have even more problems with it than before. It reads as complete nonsensical fluff in it's descrition (and no stats or data are presented for it) But as I said before, it's your game universe, I personally have many issue with the satelite orbitting in hyperspace concept (especially with one line in that "officil" writeup directly stating the PDV places the satelite so it's shadow is lost and overlapped with the planet - by everything official in the rulebook this would immediately knock the satelite out of hyperspace).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | But that is incorrect. As it says in all three editions of Star Wars, all things in Hyperspace exist in realspace as well, hence how collisions can happen in the first place. |
More specifically, all objects in hyperspace cast a mass shadow in realspace, and vice versa. Collisions still occur between an object in one dimension and the mass shadow of the object in the other. As such, it is more appropriate to say that an object is fully present in either one dimension or the other, yet it still has a physical effect in the other.
| Quote: | | Additionally, in the imperial Sourcebook they have weapons specificly designed to destroy vessels and craft in Hyperspace, one such weapon is Hyperspace Pulsemass Generator, Imperial Sourcebook Page 67. |
If you read the description in detail, you will find that a ship can pass through a hyperspace pulsemass field completely unharmed if it stays in realspace. The pulsemasses only take effect if the ship either A) passes through the field while in hyperspace, or B) jumps to hyperspace while inside the field. Furthermore, a Hyperspace Pulsemass Generator is only in the experimental stages as of TESB, and makes no more than a handful of appearances in the EU. I agree that a Pulsemass Generator would be very effective at taking out objects in hyperspace, especially in a limited area like a planetary orbit, but these weapons are few and far between, especially when compared to starfighters.
| Quote: | | Additionally, if and Interdictor, or similar vessel with Gravity Wells is involved in the assault it will nock the satelite ou of hyperspace. |
You need to read a little more in detail as to the functioning of interdictors and hyperdrives. As Fallon mentioned earlier, hyperdrives have a cut-out switch that is triggered by a gravity or mass detector. It is not that gravity itself forces the ship out of hyperspace; the gravity field is an indicator of a large mass in close proximity. Upon detection, the hyperdrive cut-out drops the ship back into realspace to avoid an imminent collision. If a hyperdrive were designed without a cut-out, or even with one with a different cut-out threshhold, it would not be forced out of hyperspace by a gravity field. With a starship traveling in interstellar space, this would be almost suicidal, as 99.9999% of the gravity fields it will encounter are, in fact, projected by real objects, not Interdictors. With a satellite in orbit around a planet (i.e. traveling in a continually perpendicular course around the planet's mass shadow instead of heading straight towards it), it's a different story.
| Quote: | | Yes, anything I have suggested will eventually be targetd or can be in a war, that is the nature of war. I was not trying to provide an invincible method, just one with more survivability. I don't see those issue as probelsm with the ideas or concepts, it involves an extra effort to disable such systems, which increases survivability. |
And also decreases effectiveness. Any soldier will tell you that making something more complex actually means that you are adding one more thing that will break down at exactly the wrong moment.
| Quote: | | I get why GPS is not targetd in real life, it does not need to keep being pointed out - but if we were at war with another nation with similar space capabilities it could and would be (though such a war would likely be nuclear). A ground based central hub certainly could be reinforced and defended, and a decentarlized set of hubs is actually the ideal type for warfare as it involves needing to take out numerous locations. However, I would point out the same issue you have with all of my suggestions (only working in time of peace - which really isn't the case) also exists for yours - as any asset that is a threat can be targeted - and even if the satelite were in hyperspcae and broadcasting data back to real space, it's location would thus become known (or it hyperpath that is) allowing for it to be targeted and destroyed using and number of tried and true methods of dealing with vessels in hyperspace. |
Any number? As far as I am aware, there is only one intentional way to destroy a ship in hyperspace (the pulsemass generator), and even that is in the experimental stages as of the OT. As far as detection, almost all ships are equipped to detect objects in realspace, whereas almost none are equipped to detect objects passing by in hyperspace. Per the Star Wars Sourcebook, the only commonly available sensors that deal with hyperspace can only detect object entering or leaving hyperspace, as well as giving you an idea of its trajectory. The only official sensor system that I am aware of that can track an object in hyperspace is an S-thread tracker, and that actually has to be physically aboard the ship being tracked.
| Quote: | | And just as the information written about the HOS says they can be placed, it also clearly states they can be tracked and serviced again with the PDV. So by no means would such a satelite be untouchable - it may last a few minutes longer than some of my suggestions, but doubtful by much. |
Read it again. The capsule states that it can take hours to locate the HOS, and that is with prior knowledge of where the HOS is located. Granted, an active comm signal will make the satellite easier to detect than the HOS, but there are ways around that as well: frequency agility, burst transmission, etc. And that presupposes that the signal being generated is in the spectrum that can be detected; what if it uses some sideband of the hypercomm transmission spectrum, as opposed to a standard comm signal.
| Quote: | | I'd also point out the HOS as described accessed, retrieved, and transmitted data using hyperspace relays from the Plexus network, and only from computers connected to the plexus hyperspace network that could be "seen in hyperspace" - liekwise any such system for GPS would need a similar system to broadcast and recieve data which means a planet creating it's own version of the Plexus Hyperspace network (a very expensive task as described in the ISB). |
Wrong. The HOS was an evolution of the network concept you describe, but it was essentially a passive recording device, and its data could only be accessed by a physical download from a modified Plexus Droid Vessel. My concept is similar to the HOS only in the sense that it places a satellite in a hyperspace orbit around a planet. Apart from that, it performs a completely different mission.
| Quote: | | This adds more layers of complexity and problems. Further, witht he satelite being in Hyperspace, it can not gather actual positioning data on the planet, as it can not "see" the planet, only the hyperspace shadow of the planet, and this would completely defeat the entire purpose of GPS. |
It doesn't need to. Modern GPS satellites do nothing more than broadcast a signal that boils down to a highly accurate clock. GPS ground units receive the broadcasted signals and extrapolate a location based on that data. There is no active ground scanning involved.
| Quote: | | While it may be "official" in the Game Books (though the entry says theoretical and mentions 1 prototype) having just re-read it I have even more problems with it than before. It reads as complete nonsensical fluff in it's descrition (and no stats or data are presented for it) But as I said before, it's your game universe, I personally have many issue with the satelite orbitting in hyperspace concept (especially with one line in that "officil" writeup directly stating the PDV places the satelite so it's shadow is lost and overlapped with the planet - by everything official in the rulebook this would immediately knock the satelite out of hyperspace). |
Again, wrong. It mentions a prototype, but then mentions it being put into production as well. Your description as nonsensical fluff seems based on your unique interpretation of hyperspace. Your assertion that the satellite would be knocked out of hyperspace ignores the official reason as to why it would be knocked out of hyperspace in the first place.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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