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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | I wouldn't want someone to strap a lightsaber to a blast door or a starfighter with the blade pointing inwards and then turn it on remotely and have the lightsaber constantly output 10D damage to whatever it was strapped to. |
Yeah, a constant output of 10D damage doesn't make sense. You have to keep swinging it through new material for it to keep dealing damage. I am having trouble figuring out how the skill of a user changes the damage of an energy blade, though. At least, beyond being able to chop off a head, rather than an arm...
I also fail to see why a force user with, say 4D control, 3D sense, and 4D lightsaber skills would be doing more damage than a non-jedi who had 8D lightsaber skill.
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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I like to think of it as being something that isn't explainable by simple logic: why can a 135 lbs Bruce Lee hit harder than Mike Tyson? (I don't know if that's actually true, but you see where I'm going). There's more to it than just having a high brawling skill or a high strength. Kind of like a shao-lin monk or a zen buddhist smashing a stone with his pinky toe... there's a "mystical" element to it. |
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I'm not even sure I like the adding of control to damage, I'd prefer damage to be based on how much the weilder exceeded his to-hit roll... but that is a topic for another thread. |
I like this. Despite using the static 10D damage, I realize the WEG system is set up with the random factor. That a low roll of your damage, really results in the "arm shot" or just a flesh wound type deal. Allows more excitement and story telling.
So having it be more dependent on the skill makes since in someone who can effectively over come someone's defenses. Thus doing more damage.
Then again if I stick to wanting the lightsaber to be that magical energy sword that cuts through anything... Well, I'd accept someone strapping it to something and it doing the same damage. The energy blade is still an energy blade despite however it is used. And honestly that is where I fall into it.
People can always think of a creative way to misuse something. But I'm not going to let those possibilities make me stray from what I want the general game to play out as. Or how I want an item to function. |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I like to think of it as being something that isn't explainable by simple logic: why can a 135 lbs Bruce Lee hit harder than Mike Tyson? (I don't know if that's actually true, but you see where I'm going). There's more to it than just having a high brawling skill or a high strength. Kind of like a shao-lin monk or a zen buddhist smashing a stone with his pinky toe... there's a "mystical" element to it. |
But I can explain that with simple logic! An arm provided a much longer lever than a neck, so you can hit harder with your fist than with your teeth! </MikeTysonJoke> I tend to reject "mystical elements" in martial arts as simply popular misunderstandings of physics. Aside from that, though, wouldn't a "mystical" addition to lightsaber damage draw from your Alter dice, rather than Control?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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You could also throw in the optional damage rules from RoE, so that the damage is boosted by how well the character wielding the saber rolls to hit.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:11 am Post subject: |
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One could use the +1 damage for every 5 the attack beats the defense. This could make for adding in the complete sense, and completely remove the bonus control damage.
Luke Skywalker in the Jedi Academy source book has 11D Lightsaber and 11D+1 sense making for a total of 22D+1. He catches a single stormtrooper alone rolling his lightsaber with LSC for a total of 83 we subtract out the 16 difficulty to get a grand total of 67. We then divide it by 5 to get 13.4 rounding down to 13 he gets an addition 13 points of damage added on to his lightsaber's 5D base: 14+13 comes to 27. The trooper rolls his 3D soak including armor giving him a roll of 5. He takes 22 damage and dies.
(Or 20 if you prefer. 63. Giving only a +12 to his damage)
For items such as blast doors, I would give the door a difficulty of very easy to hit. Using Luke's roll of 22D+1 and a total of 83, we subtract 3 from the total giving him a flat 80 for his attack roll. Which gives him +16 damage. His damage roll this time is a 15 which gives him a total damage of 31. According to the revised GM screen, a Blast Door gets a 6D soak, which rolls 23, Luke does 8 damage and is on his way to slicing a nice hole within the door. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | I like to think of it as being something that isn't explainable by simple logic: why can a 135 lbs Bruce Lee hit harder than Mike Tyson? (I don't know if that's actually true, but you see where I'm going). There's more to it than just having a high brawling skill or a high strength. Kind of like a shao-lin monk or a zen buddhist smashing a stone with his pinky toe... there's a "mystical" element to it. |
But I can explain that with simple logic! An arm provided a much longer lever than a neck, so you can hit harder with your fist than with your teeth! </MikeTysonJoke> I tend to reject "mystical elements" in martial arts as simply popular misunderstandings of physics. Aside from that, though, wouldn't a "mystical" addition to lightsaber damage draw from your Alter dice, rather than Control? |
The "mystical" element doesn't come from our real life understanding of physics. It's the Force, for crying out loud.  |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I like to think of it as being something that isn't explainable by simple logic: why can a 135 lbs Bruce Lee hit harder than Mike Tyson? (I don't know if that's actually true, but you see where I'm going). There's more to it than just having a high brawling skill or a high strength. Kind of like a shao-lin monk or a zen buddhist smashing a stone with his pinky toe... there's a "mystical" element to it. |
The formula for kinetic energy is E=(mv^2)/2. We will simplify the problem by assuming that each fighter uses his entire body mass.* Let't get their respective masses. Bruce Lee weighs 135 pounds, that is 61.23 kg. Mike Tyson weighs 218 pounds, that is 98.88 kg. Let's suppose Mike hits at 25mph, that's 40.23 km/hr. After doing some math, we see that for Bruce to hit harder than Mike, Bruce needs his punch velocity to be > 51.12 km/hr. Physics says he just needs to punch a lot faster. No mysticism needed.
* I don't know how much of their body mass they use when punching, but it seems reasonable to assume that Mike punches with more mass than Bruce. |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | I like this. Despite using the static 10D damage, I realize the WEG system is set up with the random factor. That a low roll of your damage, really results in the "arm shot" or just a flesh wound type deal. Allows more excitement and story telling.
So having it be more dependent on the skill makes since in someone who can effectively over come someone's defenses. Thus doing more damage.
Then again if I stick to wanting the lightsaber to be that magical energy sword that cuts through anything... Well, I'd accept someone strapping it to something and it doing the same damage. The energy blade is still an energy blade despite however it is used. And honestly that is where I fall into it.
People can always think of a creative way to misuse something. But I'm not going to let those possibilities make me stray from what I want the general game to play out as. Or how I want an item to function. |
Personally I'm leaning towards making Lightsabers the ultimate in finesse weapons. Perhaps reducing their damage to 0D but every 3 points that you beat the to-hit roll gives you +1D to damage.
However in order to compensate for the vastly reduced damage I'd rule that most things do not get to attempt to soak damage caused by a Lightsaber, after all it's a cut-through-anything laser sword.
I'd probably allow walkers and the like to soak with their scale difference and blast doors would probably get some sort of soak to represent the fact it should take some time to cut through them but I like the idea that while a lightsaber should be able to put a hole in anything it's the placement of that hole that really determines how damaging the attack is.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Was recently rereading the Thrawn Trilogy by Zahn. There is a scene where Princess Leia ties a rope to her lightsaber and lets it swing like a pendulum to hit a speeder or shuttle being flown by a Noghri team that is after her. The lightsaber damages the craft sufficiently to cause it to crash. In the context of the story, it didn't seem like Leia did anything to increase the damage. This would seem to support the - universal cutting tool in any hands POV. I don't know that it influences my POV (which is pretty much the RAW with somewhat reduced damage for LS combat), but I thought I would throw that in there. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | The thing is I want lightsabers to do that much damage. I want them to be devastating. If it is a blade that can "cut through anything" I want it to cut through anything. My Static 10D is essentially someone with 5D Control. Anyone higher then that is doing more with their lightsaber then my static 10D. Sometimes I don't think 10D is enough. Cause essentially if my Jedi shoves their Lightsaber into a Krayt Dragon, I want that thing to dig deep into it. . |
You go that route, you might as well tell any pc who has one, to expect EVERY damn enemy around to do nothing but target them with all the most potent weapons they have, to kill him quickly.
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Azai
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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You go that route, you might as well tell any pc who has one, to expect EVERY d*mn enemy around to do nothing but target them with all the most potent weapons they have, to kill him quickly. |
Though wouldn't that make sense? Isn't the Jedi a huge target in any engagement that they are usually the most dangerous foe? Why baddies fear them? And good guys are terrified of Darth Vader? Incredible damage, for me, doesn't mean automatic win. They still have to hit their target, and dodge/block attacks themselves.
| Quote: | | I'd probably allow walkers and the like to soak with their scale difference and blast doors would probably get some sort of soak to represent the fact it should take some time to cut through them but I like the idea that while a lightsaber should be able to put a hole in anything it's the placement of that hole that really determines how damaging the attack is. |
That is actually a really good idea. Making most armor just unable to soak against lightsabers. It'd give it the whole "cut through anything deal." |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| That's true, if you remove soak rolls against lightsabers, the average 5D damage will be sufficient to destroy any character scale target.. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Was recently rereading the Thrawn Trilogy by Zahn. There is a scene where Princess Leia ties a rope to her lightsaber and lets it swing like a pendulum to hit a speeder or shuttle being flown by a Noghri team that is after her. The lightsaber damages the craft sufficiently to cause it to crash. In the context of the story, it didn't seem like Leia did anything to increase the damage. This would seem to support the - universal cutting tool in any hands POV. I don't know that it influences my POV (which is pretty much the RAW with somewhat reduced damage for LS combat), but I thought I would throw that in there. |
Well, depending on the Body Strength of the speeder, the scale difference between the lightsaber and the speeder is only 2D. Maybe she just got lucky, or the Noghri were flying a flimsy speeder? Personally though, I agree that lightsabers should inflict more damage than just a flat 5D.
A friend of mine from long ago when I was first introduced to the SW RPG had an idea for special damage rules for lightsaber. Specifically, his idea was that the lightsaber only inflicted 2D or 3D (can't remember which) but that its target wasn't allowed to roll to resist damage. The damage roll for lightsaber was simply applied to the damage chart and the target took the damage level as indicated. Perhaps the target would be allowed to roll its Scale modifier to resist (reflecting the difficulty of damaging a larger target), but the Jedi could also use the RoE optional damage rules to increase the damage inflicted by hitting a location with surgical precision.
In the case of Leia vs. the Noghri Speeder, I remember the passage Bren is referring to, and I also recall that she took careful aim and positioned herself just right (THrown Weapons skill roll?) Maybe Leia picked up some added damage from a high To Hit roll?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Fallon Kell
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
A friend of mine from long ago when I was first introduced to the SW RPG had an idea for special damage rules for lightsaber. Specifically, his idea was that the lightsaber only inflicted 2D or 3D (can't remember which) but that its target wasn't allowed to roll to resist damage. The damage roll for lightsaber was simply applied to the damage chart and the target took the damage level as indicated. Perhaps the target would be allowed to roll its Scale modifier to resist (reflecting the difficulty of damaging a larger target), but the Jedi could also use the RoE optional damage rules to increase the damage inflicted by hitting a location with surgical precision. |
So, very similar to Esoomian's idea? | Esoomian wrote: |
Personally I'm leaning towards making Lightsabers the ultimate in finesse weapons. Perhaps reducing their damage to 0D but every 3 points that you beat the to-hit roll gives you +1D to damage.
However in order to compensate for the vastly reduced damage I'd rule that most things do not get to attempt to soak damage caused by a Lightsaber, after all it's a cut-through-anything laser sword. |
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