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Henrik.Balslev
Commander
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Denmark
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 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:24 pm Post subject: refubishing old Republic era ships to rebellion era |
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A friend and I were talking about refurbishing an old republic ship to the rebellion era. According to the rules presented in GG6, the drop in Cargo capacity would be quite significant if you upgraded the ships engines, but then we desided to take a page from RL, where engines have, in a relatively short time, become much smaller and much more powerful, so our reasoning is that the space rating 3 engine of the old republic era would approximately be the size of the Incom Starslinger Ion Drive (space rating 6). The same rule could of course be applied to the Hyperspace drive, although I think the advances in this field would be slightly less than on the realspace engines.
So I suppose my question is this, are we completely off course here, and how would you guys rule in that situation?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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It's my understanding that just about everything becomes more size-efficient between the Old Republic era and the Battle of Yavin. Mostly due to the clone wars. However, it probably becomes correspondingly more expensive, too.
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Henrik.Balslev
Commander
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | It's my understanding that just about everything becomes more size-efficient between the Old Republic era and the Battle of Yavin. Mostly due to the clone wars. However, it probably becomes correspondingly more expensive, too. |
well price was never in the equation ... yet ... for now its just a question of how much more size-efficient things got 
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Base purely on size considerations, I'm not even sure you need to convert. The ship is only just over 40 meters long and carries only 100 metric tons of cargo, which puts it in the same range as Classic Era stock light freighters (and has me scratching my head as to why the called it a cruiser, but I digress). If anything, rather than converting the engine speed over, I would add in difficulty modifiers for trying to put a modern engine into such an ancient craft.
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Henrik.Balslev
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Base purely on size considerations, I'm not even sure you need to convert. The ship is only just over 40 meters long and carries only 100 metric tons of cargo, which puts it in the same range as Classic Era stock light freighters (and has me scratching my head as to why the called it a cruiser, but I digress). If anything, rather than converting the engine speed over, I would add in difficulty modifiers for trying to put a modern engine into such an ancient craft. |
Well yes that would of course be an issue, but if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that the engine that is already inside the ship would be about the same size as the engine I suggested?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Henrik.Balslev wrote: | | Well yes that would of course be an issue, but if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that the engine that is already inside the ship would be about the same size as the engine I suggested? |
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Are you basing your idea on the fact the WEG neglected to include a rule for the Cargo Capacity that you should realistically gain for taking the original engine out?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Henrik.Balslev
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Henrik.Balslev wrote: | | Well yes that would of course be an issue, but if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that the engine that is already inside the ship would be about the same size as the engine I suggested? |
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Are you basing your idea on the fact the WEG neglected to include a rule for the Cargo Capacity that you should realistically gain for taking the original engine out? |
what I'm saying is that the old republic era subspace drive with a rating of 3 would be about the same size as the rebellion/new republic era subspace drive with a rating of 6, due to technological advances, which would allow for more compact and more powerful engines to be built, which have occurred in the time that has passed from the time of the old republic to the rebellion era
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, it's easier to just use the existing stats; crossing over tech separated by several millennia will quickly turn into a real mess. After all, if the Gozanti-Class is nearly 4,000 year old by the time, there is little chance that it will still be in service by the time of the Clone Wars or the Imperial era, other than as somebody's collector's item. If you like the look of it, I would suggest that you just fudge the stats a little and say that some company in the modern era decided to do a remake of a classic ship style, with the same "classic lines" as the original, but "outfitted to modern standards."
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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But are the stats really supposed to correlate between eras several millenia apart? Hull 6D with shields on top is awfully good for a starship - military or otherwise.
The HT-2200, from the Original Trilogy timeframe is designed to be a very tough, starfighter scale freighter. It has Hull 5D, Shields 1D and a space of 3. It is actually bigger than the Gozanti, but the Gozanti is equal or inferior in nearly all respects except cargo capacity - and some of the extra cargo space is due to the the HT-2000 bding nearly 55 meters long.
If the look is what you are after, I'd be more inclined to just start from scratch and match the stats to an existing vessel from the right era to create a ship that looked like the Gozanti. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | But are the stats really supposed to correlate between eras several millenia apart? Hull 6D with shields on top is awfully good for a starship - military or otherwise.
The HT-2200, from the Original Trilogy timeframe is designed to be a very tough, starfighter scale freighter. It has Hull 5D, Shields 1D and a space of 3. It is actually bigger than the Gozanti, but the Gozanti is equal or inferior in nearly all respects except cargo capacity - and some of the extra cargo space is due to the the HT-2000 bding nearly 55 meters long.
If the look is what you are after, I'd be more inclined to just start from scratch and match the stats to an existing vessel from the right era to create a ship that looked like the Gozanti. |
To explain the rather slow technological advances over 4000 years I tend to think of ship stats as rather 'timeframe' specific. A space 4 freighter 4000 years ago would in a Rebellion campaign be a space 2 freighter for example. I dont have any hard rules for this, as these things dont crop up that often.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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It was my understanding that technology developed at a very slow rate throughout the old republic era, and only really picked up during the Clone Wars and Imperial eras. I was under the impression that ships several hundred or even several thousand years of age were not uncommonly still used around the time of the battle of Yavin. If that's true, it's probably not unthinkable that new systems could be integrated with older ones without too much work. Certainly less work than installing an aircraft carrier's nuclear reactor in a Roman Galley.
IIRC, Dreadnaughts from the early part of the clone wars were updated for service with the New Republic.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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One possibility that you could consider, looking at the weight differences between a space 4 and a space 6 is only 2 metric tons.
Why not just allow weight to be shaved off for an installation roll that exceeds the difficulty by every 5? So if you beat the installation roll by 10 you eliminate the weight difference because of an efficient installation of the sub-light engines. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | It was my understanding that technology developed at a very slow rate throughout the old republic era, and only really picked up during the Clone Wars and Imperial eras. |
Based on published stats there is almost no progress at all. The the Naboo fighters in TPM timeframe - which is what about 40 years before ANH are equivalent to fighters that appear during the original trilogy. In fact some of the Clone Wars fighters are better than their replacements. There is nothing in Star Wars like the sort of pace we see on earth. In fact the neolithic period on earth has about the same pace of technological innovation as the Star Wars galaxy. Thousands of years, even tens of thousands of years between significant innovations.
That was actually one of the things I found most surprising in the prequels. Between the Clone Wars and ANH, I was expecting something more like the improvement in military tech we see between say WWII and the Vietnam Conflict. And I was expecting TPM to the Clone Wars to be something like 1930 to WWII. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
That was actually one of the things I found most surprising in the prequels. Between the Clone Wars and ANH, I was expecting something more like the improvement in military tech we see between say WWII and the Vietnam Conflict. And I was expecting TPM to the Clone Wars to be something like 1930 to WWII. |
I want to see cloth-skinned starfighters! Yeah, I know what you mean. The temptation to make prequels look higher tech than the originals is one that moviemakers rarely resist, though.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | It was my understanding that technology developed at a very slow rate throughout the old republic era, and only really picked up during the Clone Wars and Imperial eras. |
Based on published stats there is almost no progress at all. The the Naboo fighters in TPM timeframe - which is what about 40 years before ANH are equivalent to fighters that appear during the original trilogy. In fact some of the Clone Wars fighters are better than their replacements. There is nothing in Star Wars like the sort of pace we see on earth. In fact the neolithic period on earth has about the same pace of technological innovation as the Star Wars galaxy. Thousands of years, even tens of thousands of years between significant innovations.
That was actually one of the things I found most surprising in the prequels. Between the Clone Wars and ANH, I was expecting something more like the improvement in military tech we see between say WWII and the Vietnam Conflict. And I was expecting TPM to the Clone Wars to be something like 1930 to WWII. |
Part of that is because WEG never put out any prequel stats. All of the stats we have for anything before ANH were designed by WOTC and then converted over, unless I missed some secret prequel sourcebook that isn't a fan-conversion.
It even states in a few of the conversions that the way WOTC did engines doesn't even remotely mirror speeds seen in West End Games' books. The converted ships tend to have faster speeds than the fastest experimental fighters in the new republic era. That's just an example ship engines.
What about the personal shields that WOTC created for it's knights of the old republic source book. Apparently a few thousand years prior to ANH people were walking around with not only armor that rivaled or bested advanced Imperial Armor of a modern era, but almost every merc, soldier, and bounty hunter is walking around with a personal force field. The problem is that the continuity disappears cross-system, the only way to make any sense is to choose one system or the other. |
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