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Bren
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 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think the pain should affect droids, but the energy damage would. Since I think the pain would only affect a living being, if the base damage didn't cause at least an stun/ionization result to the droid, I would rule that as no effect and let the droid act normally that round. So the power would be potentially less effecitve against a droid than against a living being.
I don't feel too strongly about the matter, but using force lightning on a droid just seems like overkill or dramatically wrong somehow.
| Quote: | | The idea I was playing with when I started this thread was something along the lines of a low starting damage like 3D, but with additional damage based on the Alter roll (similar to Enhance Attribute), so that high level Sith Lords would have more room to play with. The Sith Lord could choose to inflict either normal damage or stun (pain), but usually go with pain because they are sadistic like that. |
Actually I don't want the added damage or flexibility for the Sith lord. I want him to do as much damage as he can do, not to nerf the damage just because he is so evvvillll. I think the combination of immobilizing pain with increasing damage makes the power useful enough as an option for the Sith to use it without requiring the Sith to choose to spare the PCs instead of killing them. As a GM I prefer to let the villians play reasonably smart given the fact that we are playing a Space Opera and as a player I am more sanguine about getting hit with Force Lightning if I know that being spared from instant death is a result of how the rules work rather than due to GM niceness to my PC (or sadistic choices to cause pain rather than death by the villain). But I am aware opinions on this differ. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Also, how about an alternate rule allowing Force Lightning to affect multiple targets? Say the Force Lightning adept can hit one target at full damage, or can hit multiple targets at a damage penalty of -1D for each additional target. For example, say a Sith has an Alter of 12D and hits 4 targets simultaneously, so he rolls 9D damage instead of 12D. It would also be fair to add in MAPs for additional targets, but the exact nature of that application isn't something I've thought about yet... |
Flat +10 to all rolls per additional target is how i have handled that part.
| crmcneill wrote: | | The only problem I have with it is that WEG seems obsessed with the idea that Perception is the perfect skill to resist a physical attack with. Can anyone tell me why that is the case? |
I have asked in the past (on this forum) why per is used for ;resisting' so many force powers myself..
| Random Numbers wrote: |
If it was up to me I would give it a base damage and the give a bonus for each d in alter.
Example:
2d(base) +4 or +2 (for an alter of 2d)
Or something like that. |
Hows about it is based on your dice pool rather than the roll.\
Alter 3d-5d, dam 3d
5d-7d = 4d dam
7d-9d = 5d dam
9d-11d = 6d dam and so on..
| Quote: | | As another aside, should Force Lightning be effective against droids or items? |
I could see it poss acting as a ion cannon on droids.. but we didn't see much damage to the walls when Dooko and yoda went at it.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Hows about it is based on your dice pool rather than the roll.\
Alter 3d-5d, dam 3d
5d-7d = 4d dam
7d-9d = 5d dam
9d-11d = 6d dam and so on.. |
Now here is one of those situations where garhkal is advocating a Force User being more powerful than one of the WEG rules and more powerful than I think they should be.  I think 1/2 the Alter dice (rounded down) is plenty of damage as a base.*
Though I do think that increasing the damage each round the force lightning is in effect is good. For low level Sith they can't do much to start, though they freeze their enemy in agony and gradually do more and more damage. High level Sith with Alter 12D are crisping normal STR 2D and 3D characters immediately and even the mighty Chewbacca is taking damage after at most one round. And that way the feeling we have as the audience in RotJ where it looks like Luke is finally about to become toast after being zapped for what seems like several (many?) rounds would be more or less replicated in the rules as the damage gradually increases to a point where it will be clear to the players(s) that the character is about to become toast unless someone does something.
* Actually 1 Dice per 3D of alter may actually work better for me than 1/2 Alter. That way Palps shouldn't have crisped Luke in a single round or two.
Last edited by Bren on Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | The only problem I have with it is that WEG seems obsessed with the idea that Perception is the perfect skill to resist a physical attack with. Can anyone tell me why that is the case? |
Cause we're playing a game of Star Wars in The Matrix!
I think it may have to do with WEG just wanting to make the force "different"...  That and game balance. As you may have guessed, I don't think either of these reasons are really any good and don't think they stand up to scrutiny against the SWU.
I say if it's a physical manifestation of the force, then you resist it physically. If it's a psychological/spiritual manifestation, then perception is more appropriate.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I can provide arguments for why the resistance maybe shouldn't be based on STR. I assume one reason they chose Perception rather than STR was so that a Chewbacca doesn't resist inflict pain or force lightning better than an ANH-Luke Skywalker does. For inflict pain I'm not convinced that STR should really make any difference since strong people also have pain receptors just like weak people.
Also, some of the powers seems to be doing something inside the target and as such are not overcoming STR. Injure/kill or telekinetic kill might be examples. At least with Injure/kill the Force Users needs to touuch the target so brawling or melee parry should give a normal some chance to avoid damage. Although I can argue for why STR may not make sense for some powers, I don't have a good rationale for why PER should be the alternative - other than it is an attribute that starting Jedi characters like the Failed Jedi or Young Jedi are good at.
For some damage inflicting or Alter powers STR does seem like a better attribute to use than PER, e.g. Force Push STR or Alter make more sense for resistance to me. For bolt of hatred, STR probably makes sense - although the CP drain of that power seems too much like a D&D lifedrain to me. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | I can provide arguments for why the resistance maybe shouldn't be based on STR. I assume one reason they chose Perception rather than STR was so that a Chewbacca doesn't resist inflict pain or force lightning better than an ANH-Luke Skywalker does. For inflict pain I'm not convinced that STR should really make any difference since strong people also have pain receptors just like weak people.
Also, some of the powers seems to be doing something inside the target and as such are not overcoming STR. Injure/kill or telekinetic kill might be examples. At least with Injure/kill the Force Users needs to touuch the target so brawling or melee parry should give a normal some chance to avoid damage. Although I can argue for why STR may not make sense for some powers, I don't have a good rationale for why PER should be the alternative - other than it is an attribute that starting Jedi characters like the Failed Jedi or Young Jedi are good at.
For some damage inflicting or Alter powers STR does seem like a better attribute to use than PER, e.g. Force Push STR or Alter make more sense for resistance to me. For bolt of hatred, STR probably makes sense - although the CP drain of that power seems too much like a D&D lifedrain to me. |
I would classify Inflict Pain as psychological, but Force Lightning as physical. TK kill is, to me, obviously a physical attack. Anything kinetic would be. Injure/kill I don't remember much about, but it seems to me it might easily be psychological.
Perception, in the cases of the psychological attacks, is probably the attribute of choice for soak because it's closer to "force of will" than any other attribute. (And yeah, there's Willpower in Knowledge, but aside from the fact I think it belongs in Perception instead of Knowledge, Willpower is too cheap to improve for a soak.)
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I can provide arguments for why the resistance maybe shouldn't be based on STR. I assume one reason they chose Perception rather than STR was so that a Chewbacca doesn't resist inflict pain or force lightning better than an ANH-Luke Skywalker does. For inflict pain I'm not convinced that STR should really make any difference since strong people also have pain receptors just like weak people. |
I can see the point there, but it is debatable whether Perception or Strength would be the best indicator of how well a person can handle pain. Even if something is happening inside the target's body, it is still inflicting physical damage, and I don't see how Perception would somehow provide an alternative.
| Quote: | | For some damage inflicting or Alter powers STR does seem like a better attribute to use than PER, e.g. Force Push STR or Alter make more sense for resistance to me. For bolt of hatred, STR probably makes sense - although the CP drain of that power seems too much like a D&D lifedrain to me. |
Actually, the CP drain seems more in keeping with Force Lightning, since the description of FL states that it drains energy. Of course, I never liked Bolt of Hatred anyways.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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I see Inflict Pain as doing one of three things:
(1) making the target think he is in pain when he is not in physical pain. If it is this PER would make sense for resistance.
(2) causing some physical damage that as a corollary is very painful much in the way that touching a hot stove is painful cause you get burned. If it is this, then STR would make sense for resistance.
(3) causing the target's pain receptors to experience pain (whatever the neurological/biochemical cause of pain is. If it is this - I'm not sure what would be the proper resistance attribute, but PER seems to be better than STR to me.
Personally (1) seems more like a function of Affect Mind to me; (2) doesn't match the fact that Inflict pain causes only stun damage; (3) seems like the best match to what is going on to me.
One could then go through all the force powers and do a similar analysis. At the end one would end up with a new list of resisting attributes which would generally be either PER or STR (cause DEX, KNO, MEC, and TEC don't apply well). And most of us would disagree with some aspect of that list. 
Non-Jedi characters in our campaign don't get hit with Force powers very often so this doesn't come up much. Thus I haven't bothered to do the exercise for the rest of the force powers. I do note that Gry Sarth's conversion of the D20 Force Push (alter based) power uses STR to resist. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Willpower would be useful to resist certain Force powers as well.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Willpower would be useful to resist certain Force powers as well. |
Yes. But as Fallon Kell mentioned, it is much easier/cheaper to improve Willpower than to improve an attribute, therefore the number of power that it resists should be limited. Affect mind would be a good choice. Probably any mind/morale effecting powers are good choices. I don't think willpower would prevent inflict pain, for example since I don't think willpower makes pain go away. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I don't think willpower would prevent inflict pain, for example since I don't think willpower makes pain go away. |
Depends on your interpretation of willpower. It may not make pain go away, but it can deliver the mind-over-matter strength of will to act in spite of the pain...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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I will agree with C here. Having a high will power can allow you to grimace THROUGH the pain, once it is there to still act. But i agree with bren in that i do not see willpower allowing you to resist being caused pain.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Depends on your interpretation of willpower. |
While I agree with you that from a definitional theory POV it "depends," I can't think of a definition of willpower that makes pain, never occur, not exist, or just go away. Can you?
Please note that I'm not debating whether willpower sometimes allows a character to act despite discomfort or pain. That is inherent in the RAW ability to use Willpower to override a failed Stamina roll. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Depends on your interpretation of willpower. |
While I agree with you that from a definitional theory POV it "depends," I can't think of a definition of willpower that makes pain, never occur, not exist, or just go away. Can you? |
Not being an expert on dealing with pain, no, I can not. On the other hand, we do not know the exact technique by which the pain is inflicted, so neither can we say for certain how it is successfully resisted. Even assuming that the pain is false, and that a Perception roll would somehow enable the character to recognize the false pain, how would that make said pain hurt any less? And even if it did, how is that any different from a person with Willpower making the same decision to realize that the pain isn't real and to fight through it?
Speaking for myself, seeing as how pain is treated as a Stunning attack, I would probably roll versus Strength, as Strength is used to resist Stun attacks from other weapons. In the case of a nebulously defined effect from something like Inflict Pain, I might even permit the player a Willpower roll to resist it if he failed his Strength roll to resist the Stun (not sure exactly what form that would take, though).
| Quote: | | Please note that I'm not debating whether willpower sometimes allows a character to act despite discomfort or pain. That is inherent in the RAW ability to use Willpower to override a failed Stamina roll. |
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Bren wrote: | I can provide arguments for why the resistance maybe shouldn't be based on STR. I assume one reason they chose Perception rather than STR was so that a Chewbacca doesn't resist inflict pain or force lightning better than an ANH-Luke Skywalker does. For inflict pain I'm not convinced that STR should really make any difference since strong people also have pain receptors just like weak people.
Also, some of the powers seems to be doing something inside the target and as such are not overcoming STR. Injure/kill or telekinetic kill might be examples. At least with Injure/kill the Force Users needs to touuch the target so brawling or melee parry should give a normal some chance to avoid damage. Although I can argue for why STR may not make sense for some powers, I don't have a good rationale for why PER should be the alternative - other than it is an attribute that starting Jedi characters like the Failed Jedi or Young Jedi are good at.
For some damage inflicting or Alter powers STR does seem like a better attribute to use than PER, e.g. Force Push STR or Alter make more sense for resistance to me. For bolt of hatred, STR probably makes sense - although the CP drain of that power seems too much like a D&D lifedrain to me. |
I would classify Inflict Pain as psychological, but Force Lightning as physical. TK kill is, to me, obviously a physical attack. Anything kinetic would be. Injure/kill I don't remember much about, but it seems to me it might easily be psychological.
Perception, in the cases of the psychological attacks, is probably the attribute of choice for soak because it's closer to "force of will" than any other attribute. (And yeah, there's Willpower in Knowledge, but aside from the fact I think it belongs in Perception instead of Knowledge, Willpower is too cheap to improve for a soak.) |
I don't see any problems with using perception or concentration to resist being affected by a force power. You still have to use str to withstand the damage if you are affected. The lightening is still a manifestation of the force.
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