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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: Better Rules for Force Lightning |
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So, I have issues with the RAW version of Force Lightning (and I know I'm not the only one). For one thing, to use this power, a Force user has to have an Alter of atleast 8D for Force Lightning to have any effect. For another, it does normal damage, even though we see Palpatine (with an insanely high Alter) hit Luke with it on multiple occasions. Here's what I'm thinking:
1). Any write-up of Force Lightning needs to have at least some sort of minimum damage level, as most player characters can actually soak a Force Lightning hit with minimal damage unless the Dark sider throwing the lightning has an Alter of 8D or more.
2). It also needs to include the ability to inflict non-lethal damage. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a Force Lightning adept can limit his damage to Stun only as an in game effect, but the actual result is that the lightning blast does something similar to Inflict Pain.
3). It needs a set range, like Life Detection. The Modified by Proximity tables get thrown around in the Force powers way more than they should, and apparently WEG forgot that the extreme end of their Proximity Modifier chart allowed the adept to hit targets in other star systems if he rolled high enough.
4). While I am not a huge fan of the Jedi power Electric Judgment, it would make more sense to have it folded into Force Lightning (This will be included purely as an optional rule).
5). Not once, in all the films, do we see anyone actually die from getting hit with Force Lightning. Perhaps a more obvious solution would be to start with a minimal damage that slowly ramps up to lethal levels the longer the Force Lightning is applied.
I have some ideas for what I would like to see in the Force Lightning power, but I'd like to get some list input before I change anything up.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:29 am Post subject: |
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On your point A, it depends which source you go by.
the Dark force rising book had it 1 for 1. Other sources listed it as 1d for 2d.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | On your point A, it depends which source you go by.
the Dark force rising book had it 1 for 1. Other sources listed it as 1d for 2d. |
Yeah, I think the 1 for 2 rule was a 2R&E rules edit, and that's the one that ended up in the Force Powers compilation. I had forgotten the Dark Force Rising version existed (Wasn't Dark Force Rising the very first 2E sourcebook?)
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:51 am Post subject: |
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We have used the added effect of 'Inflict Pain' for years to boost an otherwise rather 'meh' force power. For the effect to kick in the force power attack must either result in a wound or a stun. IRC the 'Inflict Pain' effect was lower if the damage result of the attack was 'Stunned' (ie, not a full RAW Inflict Pain').
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | We have used the added effect of 'Inflict Pain' for years to boost an otherwise rather 'meh' force power. For the effect to kick in the force power attack must either result in a wound or a stun. IRC the 'Inflict Pain' effect was lower if the damage result of the attack was 'Stunned' (ie, not a full RAW Inflict Pain'). |
I think you've mentioned that before, and I agree that its a good idea.
Another thing that threw me about Force Lightning is that its Alter Difficulty is equal to either the target's Perception or Control roll. For starters, using Perception to block a physical attack seems ridiculous to me, but that problem isn't just with Force Lightning, so I'll leave it alone for now. I also have difficulty wrapping my head around the rationale for the target's Control roll; how exactly does a target's Control skill level affect the Difficulty of a ranged attack?.
Also, we never see Force Lightning used at long ranges; it's usually within a few meters, so making it a line of sight attack modified by WEG's proximity chart seems a bit of a stretch. I'm leaning towards a version of Force Lightning with a set range of 10 meters with a base Alter Difficulty of Moderate. The adept may hit out to longer ranges, but the base Alter Difficulty increases by one level for every 10 meters.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Hows about
Base diff - 10m
Diff+10 = 20m
Diff+ 15 = 30m
Diff +20 = 40m
Diff +25 = 50m.....
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Hows about
Base diff - 10m
Diff+10 = 20m
Diff+ 15 = 30m
Diff +20 = 40m
Diff +25 = 50m..... |
I think you skipped Diff+5, but other than that it looks good
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Also, how about an alternate rule allowing Force Lightning to affect multiple targets? Say the Force Lightning adept can hit one target at full damage, or can hit multiple targets at a damage penalty of -1D for each additional target. For example, say a Sith has an Alter of 12D and hits 4 targets simultaneously, so he rolls 9D damage instead of 12D. It would also be fair to add in MAPs for additional targets, but the exact nature of that application isn't something I've thought about yet...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | We have used the added effect of 'Inflict Pain' for years to boost an otherwise rather 'meh' force power. For the effect to kick in the force power attack must either result in a wound or a stun. IRC the 'Inflict Pain' effect was lower if the damage result of the attack was 'Stunned' (ie, not a full RAW Inflict Pain'). |
I think you've mentioned that before, and I agree that its a good idea.
Another thing that threw me about Force Lightning is that its Alter Difficulty is equal to either the target's Perception or Control roll. For starters, using Perception to block a physical attack seems ridiculous to me, but that problem isn't just with Force Lightning, so I'll leave it alone for now. I also have difficulty wrapping my head around the rationale for the target's Control roll; how exactly does a target's Control skill level affect the Difficulty of a ranged attack?.
Also, we never see Force Lightning used at long ranges; it's usually within a few meters, so making it a line of sight attack modified by WEG's proximity chart seems a bit of a stretch. I'm leaning towards a version of Force Lightning with a set range of 10 meters with a base Alter Difficulty of Moderate. The adept may hit out to longer ranges, but the base Alter Difficulty increases by one level for every 10 meters. |
After playing TFU, which uses Force Lightning in lots of different ways I was inspired to allow the same attack to hit several adjacent targets. This could be done at a -1D dice penalty per additional target, or a function of 'mastery levels' I mentioned in another thread (a similar system is used in TFU).
Having Force Lightning add damage to the lightsaber attack (as in TFU) is a bit redundant in SWD6 though... 
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd be inclined to add the inflict pain - since it is clear from the movies that it hurts - and then just ramp up the damage on a round by round basis. That way, users with a lower Alter score just have to keep the power up longer to eventually crisp their target. Adding in a -1D MAP per additional target seems fine as long as the targets are in the same arc (of same 60-degrees or 90-degrees). From the movie evidence the user sort of spreads his fingers covering an arc already. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I'd be inclined to add the inflict pain - since it is clear from the movies that it hurts - and then just ramp up the damage on a round by round basis. That way, users with a lower Alter score just have to keep the power up longer to eventually crisp their target. Adding in a -1D MAP per additional target seems fine as long as the targets are in the same arc (of same 60-degrees or 90-degrees). From the movie evidence the user sort of spreads his fingers covering an arc already. |
The original version in the Dark Force Rising sourcebook seems much better than the version in TOTJ. It inflicts full Alter damage, and anyone who takes any sort of damage is in so much pain that they are essentially stunned for the rest of the round and all of the round after that. The only problem I have with it is that WEG seems obsessed with the idea that Perception is the perfect skill to resist a physical attack with. Can anyone tell me why that is the case?
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I'd be inclined to add the inflict pain - since it is clear from the movies that it hurts - and then just ramp up the damage on a round by round basis. That way, users with a lower Alter score just have to keep the power up longer to eventually crisp their target. Adding in a -1D MAP per additional target seems fine as long as the targets are in the same arc (of same 60-degrees or 90-degrees). From the movie evidence the user sort of spreads his fingers covering an arc already. |
The original version in the Dark Force Rising sourcebook seems much better than the version in TOTJ. It inflicts full Alter damage, and anyone who takes any sort of damage is in so much pain that they are essentially stunned for the rest of the round and all of the round after that. The only problem I have with it is that WEG seems obsessed with the idea that Perception is the perfect skill to resist a physical attack with. Can anyone tell me why that is the case? |
Although I'm a big fan of the big crisp-you-up-bolt and would give my right arm for an opportunity to burn some enemies with it, 1 for 1 on alter as damage is insanely good. A 5d or 6d alter Jedi would incinerate almost anyone.
If it was up to me I would give it a base damage and the give a bonus for each d in alter.
Example:
2d(base) +4 or +2 (for an alter of 2d)
Or something like that.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | Or something like that. |
That was my original thought when I started this topic, and I still haven't given up on it. I was also thinking of a sustained damage rule, where the damage goes up by +1D for every additional round that Force Lightning is applied.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I was also thinking of a sustained damage rule, where the damage goes up by +1D for every additional round that Force Lightning is applied. |
Yes. Exactly this, but with a low starting damage. A low starting damage because (i) I prefer to think that the bad guys can't crisp the hero in one round rather than that that the bad guys just chose not to crisp the hero right away and nerfed the damage to prolong the agony for some reason and (ii) I see more dramatic possibilities in an RPG for the slow build since it gives time for a scene like Luke persuading Vader/Anakin to help him or or for the heroes friends and allies to distract the villain before the hero is crisped.
I think something like 1/2 Alter in damage is plenty of starting damage (and possibly too much starting damage especially at Palp or Vader level). For a villain that is around what I look at as a Jedi Knight level - say Alter 6D damage starts at 3D which most PCs should easily survive, but if it ramps up by say +1D per round, the PC will quickly burn through a lot of CPs.
Example: If the PC has around a 3D STR then the CP cost for the Rth round is approximately (R -1) CP where R is the current number of rounds that force lightning has been in effect. After six rounds the PC would have spent 15 CPs total and would now be at the max of 5 CPs added to soak. Thus they would no longer be able to add more CPs (even if they had any left) and would start taking damage.
Something like that makes Force Lighting useful to the bad guys - since it essentially holds the victim frozen in agony - but not so overwhelming that the PCs are immediately turned into crispy evil snacks. And as a bonus to the GM, until someone breaks the Force Lighting inflicted pain deadlock, the PC (and the player) is forced to listen to the evil villain's gloating monologue.  |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Yes. Exactly this, but with a low starting damage. A low starting damage because (i) I prefer to think that the bad guys can't crisp the hero in one round rather than that that the bad guys just chose not to crisp the hero right away and nerfed the damage to prolong the agony for some reason and (ii) I see more dramatic possibilities in an RPG for the slow build since it gives time for a scene like Luke persuading Vader/Anakin to help him or or for the heroes friends and allies to distract the villain before the hero is crisped. |
The idea I was playing with when I started this thread was something along the lines of a low starting damage like 3D, but with additional damage based on the Alter roll (similar to Enhance Attribute), so that high level Sith Lords would have more room to play with. The Sith Lord could choose to inflict either normal damage or stun (pain), but usually go with pain because they are sadistic like that.
There also seems to be something of a kinetic aspect to Force Lightning, in that characters hit with Force Lightning get knocked back or to one side. Dooku actually seems to TK Anakin across the room in AOTC. I think I've mentioned it in another topic, but never came up with a satisfactory response.
As another aside, should Force Lightning be effective against droids or items?
| Quote: | | Something like that makes Force Lighting useful to the bad guys - since it essentially holds the victim frozen in agony - but not so overwhelming that the PCs are immediately turned into crispy evil snacks. And as a bonus to the GM, until someone breaks the Force Lighting inflicted pain deadlock, the PC (and the player) is forced to listen to the evil villain's gloating monologue. :twisted: |
Definitely. Force Lightning's primary purpose seems to be purely for dramatic effect more than any particular utility. It is the perfect evil villain tool for exactly the reason you described: immobilize your enemy so you can gloat.
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