| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| atgxtg wrote: | | IMO this shouldn7t be something that is bought, but a natural effect of a very high skill. For example, someone with Computer Programming 12D should intrinctively look at some code and get an idea about it. Even if he isn't actively thinking about it. |
Maybe use something similar to the speeding up an action. Where you open the lock, fix the ship, or whatever faster than the normal time but you have to roll half your skill. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I am still not seeing search or sneak being able to be 'instinctive'.. same with con or command.. |
Well, I equate Instinctive Search with people who are always alert, always noticing details that other people miss. Mostly I think it would be a trait for Intel Agents, who have been trained to always always ALWAYS have their guard up. |
Have you ever tried to be always alert? I have. At most it can get maintained for several hours. Some great users can go a day or so..
| Quote: |
Instinctive Sneak would be those people who just seem to naturally blend into their environment. A good example would be Lieutenant Paige in Heir to the Empire; in the opening scenes, he was Han's true backup, while Wedge Antilles acted as the decoy. |
I don't see what he did as something that was instinctive.. just his actual application of the skill..
| Quote: |
I've seen a lot of 5D skills rolls fail to make an Easy (6-10) difficulty, so I am less sanguine about automatic success with a zero chance of failures or complications. That seems like a huge advantage. |
Agreed. The more i think of this, the less i can agree to it..
| Quote: | | It's more of an outgrowth of a discussion that certain characters are so good at certain skills that they do them naturally, without any real need to act consciously. The specific example discussed was Vader being naturally Intimidating, so that in certain situations, he just automatically succeeded at being intimidating, without the need for a rule of any kind. It got me thinking about other possible skills that characters might embody so completely that they perform them without really thinking about it (up to a certain point). Of course, to achieve that level, they would have to pay a relatively high one-time CP cost (10-20CP, although I haven't decided yet...) |
And to me that level of so 'embody' is not something that any joe schmoe can be good at.. IMO to embody it you should be VERY damn good at it.. say 9d+..
| Quote: |
Maybe use something similar to the speeding up an action. Where you open the lock, fix the ship, or whatever faster than the normal time but you have to roll half your skill. |
The "Hurry rule"
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | Have you ever tried to be always alert? I have. At most it can get maintained for several hours. Some great users can go a day or so.. |
Have you ever tried lifting a spaceship with your mind? I'm not saying this is entirely realistic, but then, we aren't playing in an entirely realistic universe...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | Have you ever tried lifting a spaceship with your mind? I'm not saying this is entirely realistic, but then, we aren't playing in an entirely realistic universe... |
First I would need a spaceship... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | First I would need a spaceship... |
You too? I'm glad I'm not the only one with that problem. 
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Perhaps it's just the way I interperet the word instinctive but to me instinctive skills seem like skills that would be easier to learn, something the character has an afinity for rather than skills they can use better than someone else of comparible skill.
I'd be tempted to make instinctive skills cost an attribute dice (or two) at character creation but then be bought at half cost from then on so they're more easily able to advance in that area.
The area effect intimidation or always active search seems more like it should be a one off merit or feat that could be purchased at any level but only really becomes useful when the skill is at high levels.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Esoomian wrote: | | Perhaps it's just the way I interperet the word instinctive but to me instinctive skills seem like skills that would be easier to learn, something the character has an afinity for rather than skills they can use better than someone else of comparible skill. |
I won't rehash my perspective on Instinctive, but if a character can learn to be fluent in a language, then there have to be other physical skills that can become similarly instinctive.
| Quote: | | The area effect intimidation or always active search seems more like it should be a one off merit or feat that could be purchased at any level but only really becomes useful when the skill is at high levels. |
That's exactly the way I designed it. With each D only counting for 2 points, it's the lowest value a D can get without getting into Wild Die territory. Using that rule, a character isn't going to automatically succeed at the high level difficulties (he will still need regular skill rolls for that). This is more of a rules-based explanation for why certain people seem to have "natural aptitude" in certain areas. In many ways, what I'm proposing is more of a Hollywood exaggeration than the way things work in real life, but it does have some basis in fact, and since we aren't playing in the real world, I figure, why not?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I am still not seeing search or sneak being able to be 'instinctive'.. same with con or command.. |
Well, I equate Instinctive Search with people who are always alert, always noticing details that other people miss. Mostly I think it would be a trait for Intel Agents, who have been trained to always always ALWAYS have their guard up. |
Have you ever tried to be always alert? I have. At most it can get maintained for several hours. Some great users can go a day or so..
|
I know of some things that keep you alert for a day or so, but you shouldn't use them... Anyways, some people notice small things, things others would consider "hidden in plain sight" or things out of the way that others would miss. Whether that's instinctive search or just high PER bears discussion. | garhkal wrote: |
| Quote: |
Instinctive Sneak would be those people who just seem to naturally blend into their environment. A good example would be Lieutenant Paige in Heir to the Empire; in the opening scenes, he was Han's true backup, while Wedge Antilles acted as the decoy. |
I don't see what he did as something that was instinctive.. just his actual application of the skill..
|
Sneak is another matter. I've mentioned before how big I am, (6'2", 220+), but people are always backing into me and I often accidentally startle people when I walk into a room. You could say that I have "instinctive sneak". (The funny thing is I wouldn't rate my intentional sneak much higher than my instinctive.) I "sneak" around all the time, unless I want to be noticed, because I just don't like to be loud or flashy or draw attention. | garhkal wrote: |
| Quote: |
I've seen a lot of 5D skills rolls fail to make an Easy (6-10) difficulty, so I am less sanguine about automatic success with a zero chance of failures or complications. That seems like a huge advantage. |
Agreed. The more i think of this, the less i can agree to it..
|
Maybe a retroactive skill roll at a penalty, rather than a set reliable outcome. The only time I've ever done anything like that was once I had an NPC who was very force-sensitive, but had no jedi training or anything like it. I reverse capped his dice at a minimum of two, (so with 5D, the minimum he could roll was 10, barring chance die penalties.) | garhkal wrote: |
| Quote: | | It's more of an outgrowth of a discussion that certain characters are so good at certain skills that they do them naturally, without any real need to act consciously. The specific example discussed was Vader being naturally Intimidating, so that in certain situations, he just automatically succeeded at being intimidating, without the need for a rule of any kind. It got me thinking about other possible skills that characters might embody so completely that they perform them without really thinking about it (up to a certain point). Of course, to achieve that level, they would have to pay a relatively high one-time CP cost (10-20CP, although I haven't decided yet...) |
And to me that level of so 'embody' is not something that any joe schmoe can be good at.. IMO to embody it you should be VERY d*mn good at it.. say 9d+..
|
But now we get back to my instinctive sneak, where I wouldn't put my intentional past 4D at maximum.
Not that I wanted to cut your whole post to bits, but you addressed all the most pertinent points of this topic, and we just happened to fall mostly on opposite sides of the issues.
| Bren wrote: | | First I would need a spaceship... |
Oh well, it's better than having the spaceship and lacking a mind... 
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Esoomian wrote: | Perhaps it's just the way I interperet the word instinctive but to me instinctive skills seem like skills that would be easier to learn, something the character has an afinity for rather than skills they can use better than someone else of comparible skill.
I'd be tempted to make instinctive skills cost an attribute dice (or two) at character creation but then be bought at half cost from then on so they're more easily able to advance in that area.
The area effect intimidation or always active search seems more like it should be a one off merit or feat that could be purchased at any level but only really becomes useful when the skill is at high levels. |
I an agree with that Es.. Perhaps instinctive skills are treated like specialties but with the BASE skill (though no specialty can be learned for it)..
| Fallon Kell wrote: |
I know of some things that keep you alert for a day or so, but you shouldn't use them... Anyways, some people notice small things, things others would consider "hidden in plain sight" or things out of the way that others would miss. Whether that's instinctive search or just high PER bears discussion.
|
Agreed... though i do know several fellow seabees who are what i would consider highly perceptive miss stuff that the less perceptive ones catch..
| Fallon Kell wrote: |
Maybe a retroactive skill roll at a penalty, rather than a set reliable outcome. The only time I've ever done anything like that was once I had an NPC who was very force-sensitive, but had no jedi training or anything like it. I reverse capped his dice at a minimum of two, (so with 5D, the minimum he could roll was 10, barring chance die penalties.)
|
Hows about a sort of combination of those skills..
Instinctive skills are treated as if they were specialties (half cost to advance) but up to a point they are capped when rolled.. say 7d is the cut off, and 4 is their cap (like in 2nd ed base scaling)..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: | | Perhaps it's just the way I interperet the word instinctive but to me instinctive skills seem like skills that would be easier to learn, something the character has an afinity for rather than skills they can use better than someone else of comparible skill. |
I won't rehash my perspective on Instinctive, but if a character can learn to be fluent in a language, then there have to be other physical skills that can become similarly instinctive.
| Quote: | | The area effect intimidation or always active search seems more like it should be a one off merit or feat that could be purchased at any level but only really becomes useful when the skill is at high levels. |
That's exactly the way I designed it. With each D only counting for 2 points, it's the lowest value a D can get without getting into Wild Die territory. Using that rule, a character isn't going to automatically succeed at the high level difficulties (he will still need regular skill rolls for that). This is more of a rules-based explanation for why certain people seem to have "natural aptitude" in certain areas. In many ways, what I'm proposing is more of a Hollywood exaggeration than the way things work in real life, but it does have some basis in fact, and since we aren't playing in the real world, I figure, why not? |
I know exactly where you're coming from here. Some skills, a person doesn't even have to try to use. They are just always in effect. On one hand you could argue that the GM should inform the player anytime a particular skill would be relevant and call for an "incidental" roll. Such as a detective overhearing two people talking in "code." A normal person would not pick up on it, but the GM might decide that since the detective is close enough to hear the conversation, he's entitled to a con roll or investigation roll or some such even though he wasn't actually trying to listen in.
On the other hand a skill like search could be passive to represent a person who is always trying to be aware of their surroundings (such as a spy or fugitive). One way to handle it would be to have the player roll at the beginning of the game and use that total as his "walking" total. Anytime a search roll might be beneficial to the character, the GM uses that result and secretly compares it to the incidental difficulty. If the roll fails, the player is not even informed of the situation. If it's successful, the player is informed. Yet another way would be the way you're describing, which I find to be perfectly acceptable. Sometimes, being good enough at something means you don't even have to try. Chance has so little (if anything) to do with the outcome that it's not even worth rolling. In this case, 2 is your magic number. And I think it's a good number to use. It guarantees a reasonable amount of success relative to the skill level for no effort.
For example, if a character has 12D in lifting, would you really make him roll to lift and carry his wounded friend? Based upon the guidelines for what a certain die code represents (2D=human avg, 4D=professional etc) I would say that at the 6D level, something like this becomes available, because it begins to represent a facility with that particular skill not common on any planet (0.001%). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Naaman wrote: | | For example, if a character has 12D in lifting, would you really make him roll to lift and carry his wounded friend? Based upon the guidelines for what a certain die code represents (2D=human avg, 4D=professional etc) I would say that at the 6D level, something like this becomes available, because it begins to represent a facility with that particular skill not common on any planet (0.001%). |
I don't know if I'd do it for Lifting. IMO, the only Strength skill that comes close to qualifying would be Stamina, and even then I'm not sure. The reason I picked 2 was that it was the lowest value that could be rolled on a D without running into Wild Die territory.
It is sort of a Hollywood effect, with spies being constantly aware of their surroundings and the like, but there is definitely some basis to it, especially with regards to Intimidation. After all, Chuck Norris is intimidating even when he is smiling (because he might be smiling in anticipation of caving your head in).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | After all, Chuck Norris is intimidating even when he is smiling (because he might be smiling in anticipation of caving your head in). |
Chuck Norris doesn't smile; he bears his teeth in a friendly way.
I think one of the issues here is that each "instinctive" skill would likely be applied in a different way...
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | After all, Chuck Norris is intimidating even when he is smiling (because he might be smiling in anticipation of caving your head in). |
Chuck Norris doesn't smile; he bears his teeth in a friendly way. |
Chuck Norris is so deadly that he can kill ants with a magnifying glass. At night.
| Quote: | | I think one of the issues here is that each "instinctive" skill would likely be applied in a different way... |
Very true. An alternate application would be to allow the purchase of an Instinct upgrade to a skill during character creation...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | For example, if a character has 12D in lifting, would you really make him roll to lift and carry his wounded friend? Based upon the guidelines for what a certain die code represents (2D=human avg, 4D=professional etc) I would say that at the 6D level, something like this becomes available, because it begins to represent a facility with that particular skill not common on any planet (0.001%). |
I don't know if I'd do it for Lifting. |
Really? This one seems like a no brainer for me and actually the best example of an automatic skill. I'm not a very strong person, but there are certainly weights that I have an automatic success for in the real world. Say a box of copy paper for example. According to the lifting table I'd actually have to roll to lift a box of paper - and I might fail. That just seems silly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | I don't know if I'd do it for Lifting. |
Really? This one seems like a no brainer for me and actually the best example of an automatic skill. |
Good point
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
