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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Another factor to consider is that these ships are not all being generated by the same design culture. Multiple starship companies on different planets across the galaxy will have different names for the same class of ship. One culture's frigate will be another culture's cruiser will be another culture's destroyer, and so on.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Kemper Boyd
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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I used an idea from the Atomic Rockets website to have my campaign use a new classification method for capital ships.
http://imperialcenterdoesnothold.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/ship-classification-in-the-federal-fleet/
Basically, the difference between a destroyer and a frigate, a light cruiser and a heavy cruiser, a battlecruiser and a battleship is the ability to engage in independent patrol duties. Of course, this is often a pretty thin line but at certain times very apparent. |
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borithan
Cadet
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | Okay well firstly corvette, frigate, destroyer, light and heavy cruiser, battlecruiser, battleship, escort carrier, fleet carrier and flagship are all utilitarian terms. They do not relate to craft specifications, tonnage or armaments and equip. |
Generally they do. Battleships are "Line of Battle Ships", ie meant to directly duke it out with the enemy, with the heaviest guns and armour, pretty much invulnerable to anything short of another battleship. Cruisers are lighter ships, but able to travel long distances and operate independently (basically "cruise" around, hence their name). Cannot take on battleships, but anything short of that and they have the upper hand. The separation of light and heavy largely just determines that heavy cruisers have heavier armament. Battlecruisers are meant to be able to fight in the line of battle, being a similar size having similar armament to a Battleship, but aiming to be as fast as a cruiser (usually at the expense of armour). Destroyers are escort vessels. Originally termed "torpedo boat destroyers" they were meant to prevent torpedo boats attacking the line of battle. Over time they got steadily larger and were armed with torpedoes themselves meaning they could take a slightly more aggressive approach, but were still massively outclassed in a gunfight (though a few together might be able to see off a cruiser). Frigates also acted as escorts, but further back in time they also acted as picket vessels, commerce raiders and the like. Nowadays it is basically "smaller than a destroyer". Corvettes are cheap merchant escorts, and smaller again.
Now, Star Wars of course doesn't necessarily fit this structure, though it is surprisingly close if you look at the films alone. Corvettes are outmassed by frigates, which are outmassed by cruisers (though that term does seem to be used to describe ships of the line). There don't seem to be any actual destroyers (unless the ridiculous line that Star Destroyers are destroyers is followed, even though they are referred to directly as cruisers and seem to be used as battleships). When you get to the EU, it all just goes to pot, as the writers clearly just use what they think sounds cool at the time.
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For one example, take a Queen Elizabeth-class Dreadnaught of 1941 refit into the Mediterranean or the Indian Ocean and it is a battleship. Take the very same ship, don't change a d*mn thing into the Atlantic or the North Sea in that very same year and it's a battlecruiser, unfit for combat with contemporary battleships. Take it into the Arctic Ocean and it's a battleship again. Park it off New York Harbour and it's a heavy cruiser. |
Erm... not as far as I am aware. It would remain a battleship the entire time. It may be an outdated battleship, but it remains one the entire time. If you are referring to the historical Queen Elizabeth class, it's 14 inch guns massively outgunned any cruiser (heavy cruisers tended to run at about 8 inch) and while fast for a battleship they were not as fast as battlecruisers (and more heavily armoured).
As the thread is about bad canon ship designs, I am just going to ask about the Nebulon B frigate (not that the design is bad, but the execution in game). I have only just recently got Star Wars d6 (2nd edition), and looking at the stats for the ship and I am puzzled by the laser cannons, and their 2d damage. Now, I actually got the 1st edition rules quite some time ago, and in that (if I remember correctly) if you got to make a damage roll (ie defences failed) then there result was at least "Stunned" or "Controls ionised" even if the strength/hull roll was higher than the damage. However, with 2nd edition, as far as I am reading it, this is no longer the case, and the damage roll has to at least match the strength/hull roll.
Now, that's fine, but looking at the 2d damage it is going to be hard pushed to ever damage any startfighter (very unlucky hull rolls on the starfighter's behalf excepted). Now, if it was a capital scale weapon, then the scale differences might make that more likely, but it is stated as being a starfighter class weapon (which makes sense, as otherwise it would have a hard time hitting its intended target). Now, was this a mistake (it should have higher damage), or am I just misunderstanding it? |
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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The low damage weapons are meant to be combined fire. With 2E R&E the ship's captain can have the guns combine fire on a ship upping either the roll to hit, or the damage roll. But then when looking at the stats, there aren't exactly a large number of them to be combined to make up the damage, except for maybe the front.
| Quote: | Model: Kuat Vonak Light Laser Cannon
Type: Light laser cannon
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Weight: 2 tons
Cost: 1,500
Availability: F
Fire Control: 2D
Damage: 2D
Source: Galaxy Guide 6: Tramp Freighters (page 40) |
These are likely the laser cannons used, it wouldn't be hard to replace them with something a little heavier, or make each of the laser turrets into a quad light laser or triple light lasers for a little extra punch. 1,500 credits isn't much, and 2 tons out of the 6,000 the Neb B has is barely a drop in the bucket.
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borithan
Cadet
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Not knowing the system that well, do you think it would be overpowering if I instead either treated the damage as capital scale damage (using the cap dice scale system, rather than the scale dice system), or decided they should be rated 4d (which looking at the other stats seems to be the norm for military level laser cannons)? |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| borithan wrote: | | Destroyers are escort vessels. Originally termed "torpedo boat destroyers" they were meant to prevent torpedo boats attacking the line of battle. Over time they got steadily larger and were armed with torpedoes themselves meaning they could take a slightly more aggressive approach, but were still massively outclassed in a gunfight (though a few together might be able to see off a cruiser). |
In Star Wars the Corellian Gunship, with it's capital scale concussion missile tubes (for torpedoes) and it's starfighter scale quad lasers (for point defense), seems to more or less fill this role.
| borithan wrote: | | There don't seem to be any actual destroyers (unless the ridiculous line that Star Destroyers are destroyers is followed, even though they are referred to directly as cruisers and seem to be used as battleships). |
Regarding the SW equivalent of a torpedo boat Destroyer, see my comment above regarding Gunships.
Regarding what a Star Destroyer is supposed to destroy - read it as a cruiser Destroyer or a dreadnaught Destroyer. The Star prefix just means it travels from interstellar and is mean to sound cool and scary. Alternately the Star Destroyer is a bit of hyperbole meant to indicate that they are so powerful they can (almost) destroy a star.
Regarding the Nebulon B Frigate - yes 2D seems a bit wimpy. Treating as 4D could work. The other option would be to use several 2D lasercannons with combined actions to increase the damage. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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I experimented with a split Scale system that divided the Capital Ship class into two scales (Starship and Capital Ship), with the Victory-Class at the lower end of Capital Ship. I didn't get to play it as much as I would've liked, but it seemed to work well differentiating between the big "ships of the line" and the smaller escorts. It makes the cruisers like the Dreadnought and Interdictor at the upper end of the Starship scale.
As far as the Destroyer name, I just used it as a separate nomenclature designation to cover a ship that serves as a battleship, carrier and troop transport simultaneously (since such a ship doesn't exist in modern naval terminology).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Isnt the skipray a 'real world' corvette or gunboat?
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borithan
Cadet
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | borithan wrote: | | Destroyers are escort vessels. Originally termed "torpedo boat destroyers" they were meant to prevent torpedo boats attacking the line of battle. Over time they got steadily larger and were armed with torpedoes themselves meaning they could take a slightly more aggressive approach, but were still massively outclassed in a gunfight (though a few together might be able to see off a cruiser). |
In Star Wars the Corellian Gunship, with it's capital scale concussion missile tubes (for torpedoes) and it's starfighter scale quad lasers (for point defense), seems to more or less fill this role. |
Seems a fair analogy.
| Quote: |
Regarding what a Star Destroyer is supposed to destroy - read it as a cruiser Destroyer or a dreadnaught Destroyer. The Star prefix just means it travels from interstellar and is mean to sound cool and scary. Alternately the Star Destroyer is a bit of hyperbole meant to indicate that they are so powerful they can (almost) destroy a star. |
I had always taken it as the latter, that it was a hyperbolic name as it had no equal short of another Star Destroyer, and to reflect its all round capabilities (which would allow it to conquer a star system all on its own, as long as the resistance was not too great). |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Isnt the skipray a 'real world' corvette or gunboat? |
I think the Skipray is the SWU equivalent of the WWII patrol torpedo boat or PT-Boat. And Gunships would still be the SWU analog for a WWII destroyer.
Well except for the non-existence in the SWU for a submarine. Cloaked ships aren't common nor do they quite match up to a WWI or WWII submarine. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Isnt the skipray a 'real world' corvette or gunboat? |
I think the Skipray is the SWU equivalent of the WWII patrol torpedo boat or PT-Boat. And Gunships would still be the SWU analog for a WWII destroyer.
Well except for the non-existence in the SWU for a submarine. Cloaked ships aren't common nor do they quite match up to a WWI or WWII submarine. |
Also, you dont need special weapons to attack cloaked ships as there is no space equivalent of being under water. Just other sensors to detect them...
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | In Star Wars the Corellian Gunship, with it's capital scale concussion missile tubes (for torpedoes) and it's starfighter scale quad lasers (for point defense), seems to more or less fill this role.
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I heartily agree.
| Bren wrote: |
Regarding what a Star Destroyer is supposed to destroy - read it as a cruiser Destroyer or a dreadnaught Destroyer. The Star prefix just means it travels from interstellar and is mean to sound cool and scary. Alternately the Star Destroyer is a bit of hyperbole meant to indicate that they are so powerful they can (almost) destroy a star. |
I'd seen some system of classification that ranked SW capital ships by size as follows:
Corvette
Destroyer
Frigate
Cruiser
(Battlecruiser)
Battleship
Dreadnought
Star Destroyer
Star Frigate
Star Cruiser
Star Battleship
Star Dreadnought
Super Star Destroyer
Super Star Frigate
Super Star Cruiser
Super Star Battleship
Super Star Dreadnought
It is important to remember in this ranking system that the Rendilli Star Drives Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser is a cruiser, not a dreadnought.
I use a modification of this system for my own game. In real life, the line between a corvette and a frigate has been blurry since WWII, and both are smaller than a destroyer.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Woah, that's a lot of categories Fallon Kell.
Of course in Star Wars the corvette is larger than the gunship, but the gunship is more heavily armed. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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I could have sworn there was a thread on the holonet's forums that went into a big list of poss new classifications of scales... But my search fu has defected...
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garhkal
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