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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | No, I don't "have you" at all. |
Well, I was speaking in purely rhetorical terms. Obviously, we don't want to find ourselves in knife fights with drunken kids.
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Again, you are dealing with generalities based upon our technology, and the assumption that the mass being ejected from the blaster is negligible. But that might not be the case.
Hey, it is even possible that the guns produce no "recoil" per say, but that that the gun movement is part of some bult in colling system. That would make a lot of sense.
I think that what we should do here is not try to disprove "recoil" according to the laws of physics. This is Star Wars. What we should do is deal with the fact that the blasters have soem sort of kick on screen.
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Fair enough... That cooling system makes a lot of sense to me.
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So what happens when you run the numbers with an average soldier firing a FAMAS? |
In game on in real life. in real life, a lot of ammo is wasted, the gun gets hot, and maybe a few rounds hit the targerts and the rest cause people to get behind cover.
In the D6 system, high ROF weapons have a built in boost to thier damage dice.
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I was referring to the differences in ROF between semi-auto and full auto...
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Yes, they are firing ion full auto, but they are not hoklding down the button and firing continiously. Basically, with the timeit takes to aquire a target after each burst, you reach a pratical limit on ROF that is well below the weapon's actual ability to cycle rounds...
Neither the airsoft nor the .22 are big recoil weapons. Now I7ll agree that the .22 should have a flatter tradjectory and be miore accurate, especially if it is a target weapon with match grade ammo. But, neither kicks anything llike a 9 mm or a .45 caliber SMG.
And while an M-16 does fire .223 calaiberammuntiuon, that isn't the same as a .22LR. Go take a look at the enegy of the rounds being fired before you dismiss recoil forces.
If you get the chance, try pulling off a double tap with a .357 revolver.
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Okay, I just tested this recently. In lieu of a firearm I used a pump airsoft shotgun. The recoil is not as great as a real 12 gauge, but even the real recoil doesn't matter when you pump the gun and chamber a new round. I fired five shots at a 12 oz. pop can sized target at about 25 feet. It was overcast, slightly drizzly and no wind. I hit with four in five seconds. I'm fairly experienced at this shooting drill, so it's second nature to me, but the fact is it takes me less than a second to draw a bead on my target and fire accurately.
Furthermore, Kyle Lamb, a noted firearms instructor has developed a drill in which he sets up three targets and fires one shot at the left target. He switches to the middle and fires two rounds. Then he puts three on the right target. Then four on the middle and finally five on the left. This 15 round drill with five target acquisitions takes him less than 7 seconds using an AR-15 derivative chambered for 5.56 NATO rounds.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Furthermore, Kyle Lamb, a noted firearms instructor has developed a drill in which he sets up three targets and fires one shot at the left target. He switches to the middle and fires two rounds. Then he puts three on the right target. Then four on the middle and finally five on the left. This 15 round drill with five target acquisitions takes him less than 7 seconds using an AR-15 derivative chambered for 5.56 NATO rounds. |
I note that 7 seconds is two SWD6 rounds.
Do we think that in the real world there is a greater MAP for an additional target than for firing an additional shot at the same target, i.e. there is a higher penalty (or at least it takes longer) to shoot two different targets one time each than to shoot the same target twice? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I note that 7 seconds is two SWD6 rounds. |
Don't forget the rulebook notation that the length of a round is flexible for dramatic license. If the GM wanted to allow for all those shots to occur in the same round, it would be under their purview to extend the round by a couple seconds.
| Quote: | | Do we think that in the real world there is a greater MAP for an additional target than for firing an additional shot at the same target, i.e. there is a higher penalty (or at least it takes longer) to shoot two different targets one time each than to shoot the same target twice? |
There is a simple fix (that I already use): weapons capable of automatic fire are given a bonus (1D-2D) that reflects their ability to kick out multiple rounds. That bonus is applied like Fire Control, added to the character's blaster, and automatically counteracts MAPs for firing multiple shots or for firing at multiple targets.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Do we think that in the real world there is a greater MAP for an additional target than for firing an additional shot at the same target, i.e. there is a higher penalty (or at least it takes longer) to shoot two different targets one time each than to shoot the same target twice? |
In the real world, yeah. Changing targets does take longer. How much longer depends on the weapon being used, the target, distance, relative motion, and other conditions.
Weather or not we wouldw ant to translate that in D6 terms is another thing.
I know of one RPG that does apply a penalty for changing targets but it doesn't apply a peanlty for multiple shots. Instead it allows you to fire a certain number of shots per round from a given weapon.
What might be worth considering would be to allow weapons to fire up to their ROF without a MAP, but then apply the full MAP penalty for any shots/actions above the ROF. For instance, a weapon with an ROF of 2 could fire two shots before applying a MAP, but lose 1D if three shots were fired, 2D for four shots, and so forth. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Do we think that in the real world there is a greater MAP for an additional target than for firing an additional shot at the same target, i.e. there is a higher penalty (or at least it takes longer) to shoot two different targets one time each than to shoot the same target twice? |
For most handguns we would say yes?
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | For most handguns we would say yes? |
I would. And for shotguns too, as I recall. And an extra action to unsafety.  |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | For most handguns we would say yes? |
I would. And for shotguns too, as I recall. And an extra action to unsafety. |
But only until you realize that you have to unsafety. After that it's depending on your targets. If you pit your skills against Darth Hamil you get to spend extra Force points... So it's quite situational!
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: |
Fair enough... That cooling system makes a lot of sense to me. |
I'm kinda fond of it myself. Not that there is the slightest shed of pseudo-evidence to back it up. For all we know the guns moe because they spook the midichlorians.
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I was referring to the differences in ROF between semi-auto and full auto... |
Like I said. In real life. the shooters fire a LOT more ammo for the possibility of a FEW more hits. Full auto fire on a single target is generally a waste of ammo. Notable exacptions are suppression fire, and fire against fast moving targets (aircraft). But even then few shots are going to hit the target.
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Okay, I just tested this recently. In lieu of a firearm I used a pump airsoft shotgun. The recoil is not as great as a real 12 gauge, |
The recoil isn't even the same as a real pistol, let alone a real 12 gauge. . No wonder you don't think recoil is that significant, you aren't firing a weapon that has any.
Go take a look at the Kinetic Energy of a real firearm in comparison to an airsoft. The difference is several orders of magnitude.
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but even the real recoil doesn't matter when you pump the gun and chamber a new round. I fired five shots at a 12 oz. pop can sized target at about 25 feet. It was overcast, slightly drizzly and no wind. I hit with four in five seconds. I'm fairly experienced at this shooting drill, so it's second nature to me, but the fact is it takes me less than a second to draw a bead on my target and fire accurately. |
Maybe with an airgun, it certainly matters with a real firearm.
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Furthermore, Kyle Lamb, a noted firearms instructor has developed a drill in which he sets up three targets and fires one shot at the left target. He switches to the middle and fires two rounds. Then he puts three on the right target. Then four on the middle and finally five on the left. This 15 round drill with five target acquisitions takes him less than 7 seconds using an AR-15 derivative chambered for 5.56 NATO rounds. |
There are all sorts of tricks that you can pull off on targets that you can't pull off in a real fight. Once the adrenaline kicks in, it is hard enough just changing clips.
I doubt Mr. Lamb would try that technique against armed opponents. he would most likely would want to get behind some cover, rather than stand there pumping off rounds. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Okay, I just tested this recently. In lieu of a firearm I used a pump airsoft shotgun. The recoil is not as great as a real 12 gauge, |
The recoil isn't even the same as a real pistol, let alone a real 12 gauge. . No wonder you don't think recoil is that significant, you aren't firing a weapon that has any.
Go take a look at the Kinetic Energy of a real firearm in comparison to an airsoft. The difference is several orders of magnitude. |
I'm not familiar with airsoft weapons, but I am typically sceptical when someone tosses off a "several orders of magnitude comment," since that is at least 1000x the energy.  So I did some quick surfing.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotguns_protection_field.htm told me that the muzzle energy of a 12-guage shotgun is 1590 foot-pounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft told me "One joule of energy will be transferred by a 0.20 g BB traveling at 100 metres per second (330 ft/s)."
Since 1 foot pound = 1.35581795 joules the shotgun has a ME of 2155.75 joules. Which is certainly more than 1000x the energy of the airsoft.
So it looks like a standard airsoft is several orders of magnitude less energetic than a 12-g shotgun. Myth confirmed! Huh, learn something almost every day. 
Just to cover all the bases, if we assume that the shooter is not using a standard airsoft but is some hyped up sniper weapon with say double the mass of the pellet and twice the muzzle velocity, then since the formula for ME is ME=1/2mv^2 we end up with ME(sniper) = 1/2 (2m)(2v)^2 which is 8 times the ME of a standard airsoft or 8 joules. This is now less than three orders of magnitude, but the shotgun still has over 250 times the ME of the airsoft. I would expect recoil would be in a somewhat similar ratio. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
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Okay, I just tested this recently. In lieu of a firearm I used a pump airsoft shotgun. The recoil is not as great as a real 12 gauge, |
The recoil isn't even the same as a real pistol, let alone a real 12 gauge. . No wonder you don't think recoil is that significant, you aren't firing a weapon that has any.
Go take a look at the Kinetic Energy of a real firearm in comparison to an airsoft. The difference is several orders of magnitude.
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What I was saying here, though, is that while the recoil of a shotgun can move the muzzle a few degrees, when I go to pump the gun, I move the muzzle about 70 degrees so the few from the recoil is insignificant. I have to aim all over again from square one.
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but even the real recoil doesn't matter when you pump the gun and chamber a new round. I fired five shots at a 12 oz. pop can sized target at about 25 feet. It was overcast, slightly drizzly and no wind. I hit with four in five seconds. I'm fairly experienced at this shooting drill, so it's second nature to me, but the fact is it takes me less than a second to draw a bead on my target and fire accurately. |
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Maybe with an airgun, it certainly matters with a real firearm.
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How? Why would the recoil matter when I'm re-shouldering the whole gun after each shot?
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Furthermore, Kyle Lamb, a noted firearms instructor has developed a drill in which he sets up three targets and fires one shot at the left target. He switches to the middle and fires two rounds. Then he puts three on the right target. Then four on the middle and finally five on the left. This 15 round drill with five target acquisitions takes him less than 7 seconds using an AR-15 derivative chambered for 5.56 NATO rounds. |
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There are all sorts of tricks that you can pull off on targets that you can't pull off in a real fight. Once the adrenaline kicks in, it is hard enough just changing clips.
I doubt Mr. Lamb would try that technique against armed opponents. He would most likely would want to get behind some cover, rather than stand there pumping off rounds. |
The drill was designed to teach you to shoot an armed target until it drops. He would probably take cover if it was available, but then he'd shot you 3 or 4 times until you stopped moving forward and died. Besides, the success of the drill shows that the recoil doesn't destroy his aim after each shot, and the purpose of the drill contradicts the idea that multiple shots on one target are too hard to land. And, just as a side note, as adrenaline and heart rate increase, so does focus and the ability to do something well quickly. It isn't until about 100 bpm that you start to lose your coordination, and athletes and warriors can learn to control their heartbeat and keep it down in the sweet spot around 100.
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Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Gentlemen this is why we have nukes.
And superlasers. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Superlasers being the only effective defense against Bren's powerful maths?
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| Bren wrote: |
Do we think that in the real world there is a greater MAP for an additional target than for firing an additional shot at the same target, i.e. there is a higher penalty (or at least it takes longer) to shoot two different targets one time each than to shoot the same target twice? |
Exactly what I was thinking. I'm only going to charge my player a 1 pip MAP for multiple shots at the same target. Maybe then I can field durable opponents and run him out of ammo...
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Bren"]
So it looks like a standard airsoft is several orders of magnitude less energetic than a 12-g shotgun. Myth confirmed! Huh, learn something almost every day.
Thanks for doing the math and provding confirmation. I was doing it in metric (it is easier) but the ratios would be about the same.
Technically,. however,I didn't specify what type of firearm was several orders of magnitude greater. Most pistols would only be a couple of magnitudes greater Still, the difference is huge.
When you stop to consider that 1 Joule is enough energy to raise the temperatur of 1cc of water 1 degree in for once second, and that the "average" 12 gauge @ 1590 ft-pounds, is over 2155J of energy, enough to boil off over 20 cc of water (roughly 2/3rd of an ounce) with each shot, or enough to run a 100 watt lighbulb for over 20 seconds, you can appreciate just how much energy that is.
Last edited by atgxtg on Thu May 19, 2011 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: |
What I was saying here, though, is that while the recoil of a shotgun can move the muzzle a few degrees, when I go to pump the gun, I move the muzzle about 70 degrees so the few from the recoil is insignificant. I have to aim all over again from square one. |
it isn't insignificant. The time you are spending pumping the gun would be spent dealing with the recoil. And that would slow you down. Once again, I advise you to look at the performance figures for real weapons. Not some trick shooter doing something fancy, that is why it is a trick. But go look at the official rates of fire for actual pistols, rifles and shotguns.
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How? Why would the recoil matter when I'm re-shouldering the whole gun after each shot? |
Because of the time and effort it would take for the recoil to play out and for you to "recover" from the recoil. With an airsoft nearly all the movement is controlled movement. With a real firearm, it isn't.
And of top of that, static targrts at 25 feet is fairly forgiving. Try moving targets at 100 feet and suddlenly a few degrees makes a big difference.
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The drill was designed to teach you to shoot an armed target until it drops. He would probably take cover if it was available, but then he'd shot you 3 or 4 times until you stopped moving forward and died. |
Maybe, he would. Like most drills, it is only good under limited and specfic circumstances. In this case, that the guys shooting at you are nice enough to line up at close range, and stand there while you empty your shotgun.
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Besides, the success of the drill shows that the recoil doesn't destroy his aim after each shot, and the purpose of the drill contradicts the idea that multiple shots on one target are too hard to land. And, just as a side note, as adrenaline and heart rate increase, so does focus and the ability to do something well quickly. It isn't until about 100 bpm that you start to lose your coordination, and athletes and warriors can learn to control their heartbeat and keep it down in the sweet spot around 100. |
No the drill shows that under nice, controlled conditions, a skileld shooter can pull off some neat tricks. It is like that trickshooter film posted eariler. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | But go look at the official rates of fire for actual pistols, rifles and shotguns. |
And where might one find those? Any suggested links?
| Quote: | | And of top of that, static targrts at 25 feet is fairly forgiving. Try moving targets at 100 feet and suddlenly a few degrees makes a big difference. |
That could be difficult. From the airsoft web article, it doesn't appear that most airsofts are accurate out past about 75-100 feet.
On the other hand, I recently had the opportunity (thanks to my friend Random) to shoot a double barrelled 12-guage at pop up targets. We were firing birdshot, not buckshot, but at a range of 30-35 meters it was not difficult to identify, acquire, and hit the two bad guys and miss the good guy all within 3 seconds or less. At least when I remembered to unsafety the gun first.  And I have very little experience with fire arms and none with a shotgun. Metric tons of fun. Granted the targets didn't shoot back, but then I am not interested in experiencing that reality. |
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