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Cowboy Hat
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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Location: St Ives, Cambridgeshire
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 Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:08 am Post subject: Cortex Initiative, MAP and Reaction Skills Conversion |
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I have mentioned that the Cortex system uses a similar combat resolution to star wars (or at least to many peoples house rules).
After a long conversation between people over on the Cortex boards http://cortexsystemrpg.org/index.php?topic=3553.0
I think I have a good enough understanding of that system to convert it and use it in D6.
I was hoping someone could have a look at it and point out the flaws and benefits of the conversion.
When I say a conversion, I've given an example with a few points rather than hard and fast rules.
For those who go first and decide to attack it favours their attack and penalises their defence whereas those who are attacked start with a better defence and then have a worse attack in response. This is intentional.
Two guys in a bar fight - Cortex system example converted for Star Wars D6.
Turn is 3 seconds.
Mainly limited to about 3 actions. (GM discretion)
First action is no penalty, second is -1D, third is -2D (could allow a fourth action?)
You don't have to declare all of your actions at once, just what you're doing at any given moment on your turn. - remember, you don't have to, it doesn't mean you can't!
You may dodge at any point - this is the only action you are allowed to do when it's not your turn (dodge is dodge, melee parry, vehicle dodge etc)
1st Guy wins initiative chooses to go first.
1st Guy takes a swing at second guy. First action, no penalty.
2nd Guy dodges. First action, no penalty. A dodge unlike any other combat option can be taken on anyone's turn.
1st Guy decides he's not doing anything else this turn.
2nd Guy decides to take a swing at 1st guy. He has already dodged so this is at a -1D penalty.
1st Guy dodges. As he has taken an action this round he is at a -1D penalty.
2nd Guy decides to take a second swing at 1st guy. This is at -2 penalty.
1st Guy dodges. He is at -2D actions.
As both combatants have taken 3 actions the GM decides this is as many as can be taken at this point and declares the round over. Either roll initiative again or continue the same initiative but reset dice penalites.
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Last edited by Cowboy Hat on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nico_Davout
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Joined: 09 Feb 2009
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Location: Sevilla, Spain
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Nice, I like it. My players rarely do more than three actions so the limit is ok. Skipping the declaration of how many actions does a player take is good IMO, as in the middle of the combat I often forget to ask about it when the new turn arrive.
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Nico,
Han Solo shot first, midichlosomething do not exist, Rebel Alliance was created as in the WEG books and indoctrination theory is the true ending of ME3. |
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Cowboy Hat
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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Location: St Ives, Cambridgeshire
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Nico_Davout wrote: | | Nice, I like it. My players rarely do more than three actions so the limit is ok. Skipping the declaration of how many actions does a player take is good IMO, as in the middle of the combat I often forget to ask about it when the new turn arrive. |
Thanks, it's always good to have a first post responded to positively - although I don't take too much credit it's really just an easy and simple port of the cortex system - they work on dice steps using D2, D4, D6, D8, D10, D12, D12+2, D12+4 and so on (no D20). So when you take a second action at -1 dice step (as opposed to minus 1D(6) as in star wars) you would for example go from Blasters D6 to rolling Blasters D4.
Can you see any glaring problems with it though?
I'll accept "I don't like it" or "it's not to my taste" from anyone, but I would prefer "it doesn't work because of x" or "if you do this then y might happen"
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Nico_Davout
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Location: Sevilla, Spain
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:24 am Post subject: |
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I played Deadlands and I dislike systems with many different dice. They look interesting, but in the end DL left us "tired" with all those different dice, so I have the same reservation here.
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Nico,
Han Solo shot first, midichlosomething do not exist, Rebel Alliance was created as in the WEG books and indoctrination theory is the true ending of ME3. |
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Cowboy Hat
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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Location: St Ives, Cambridgeshire
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Nico_Davout wrote: | | I played Deadlands and I dislike systems with many different dice. They look interesting, but in the end DL left us "tired" with all those different dice, so I have the same reservation here. |
I don't know if the original Deadlands uses them, but the newer one is the Savage Worlds system which, yes uses different dice - you just roll skills though unlike cortex which is still your basic attribute + skill.
I like both of these systems (for different things, Savage Worlds tends towards miniature play), but then again the idea behind the post wasn't to convert anyone to another system.
Whether or not I find the DL less tiring I guess is irrelevant as that's not the point of this thread so I'll not talk about the other system any more other than in reference to the Cortex combat system.
All I'm trying to do here is see if a tried and tested combat system that I personally like works well when converted to D6 Star Wars (which is still only going to be using the same dice).
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure I understand the three actions per round limit.
Is moving an action? How far do you move? Can you run and shoot in the same round? Would running, shooting (once), and dodging (one shot) use up all your actions?
What if four or more opponents shoot at you in the same round? Would you run out of actions and no longer be able to dodge? |
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Cowboy Hat
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | I'm not sure I understand the three actions per round limit.
Is moving an action? How far do you move? Can you run and shoot in the same round? Would running, shooting (once), and dodging (one shot) use up all your actions?
What if four or more opponents shoot at you in the same round? Would you run out of actions and no longer be able to dodge? |
Don't have either cortex or sw rules on me at present but..
I'd imagine some penalty to movement. Without rules on my own good self at present I would say that if I had to wing it I would say to allow movement as much as you could move in 3 seconds if you took that as 1 action + as many other actions as you have done in the last 3 seconds.
As for dodging I think cortex runs it that if you run out of dice steps (or think run out of -1D) than you can't take an action. Also you can only take (and they stress) what is reasonablein a 3 second period.
So for example if you hit someone your turn (under these rules) with no penalty and then were attacked 5 times you would be able to defend yourself (GM discretion) 2 times at -1 and -2 (according to rules set out here) before the other three attack hit you for full attack (although GM could say, depending on circumstance) you had the ability to defend yourself more.
It might seem harsh, but at the end of the day if you're being attack by 5 attacks (say 5 people for arguments sake) in 3 seconds, it would be very hard to defend against all of them (armour, force powers, etc not withstanding).
Looking at the above example it would be on a 1 on 5 fight, you hit one of them, defend against 2, get hit by 3 (don't get into that fight!).
Could you run/shoot/dodge? I think so, but again, you could do what you could do in three seconds. You can do that in SW R&E as is, but you have a couple of extra seconds in which to elaborate I guess.
I would say that if you put it down to 3 seconds you will get a more realistic combat, more frantic but not necessarily more cinematic. It would probably be more dangerous too. - And I definitely would suggest it's not for everyone's taste (nor that I've worked out most of the details - I can at present only quote from another game system which would need to be converted at every step [it only probably works well at a basic level at the moment])
Does that make any sense at all? Hope so! Will like to discuss it more anyway and I'll go back to looking at both systems and see if I can get something that works well.[/i]
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| One problem I see with what you want to implement is that running out of dodge can be a bit problematic. If you move in an erratic, evasive pattern that should make you harder to hit for all attackers not just one. In addition, in Star Wars, the PCs are often unnumbered by the Stormtroopers so the limitation on dodge may make combat especially deadly for PCs. Similar tactic will also allow the PCs to take out any big bad by having all six PCs fire at the big bad who can only dodge/parry the first three shots. Then the two or three of the last three PCs all hit (since hitting at short ranges is easy in Star Wars). |
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | One problem I see with what you want to implement is that running out of dodge can be a bit problematic. |
This is what differs Dodge from Parrying in a way. A good dive towards a cover will result in everyone having a harder time hitting you, no matter how many shoots at you (even if its one hundred storm troopers). Parrying 1 or 100 blaster bolts is another thing though (not by the RAW, but IMO).
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | One problem I see with what you want to implement is that running out of dodge can be a bit problematic. |
This is what differs Dodge from Parrying in a way. A good dive towards a cover will result in everyone having a harder time hitting you, no matter how many shoots at you (even if its one hundred storm troopers). Parrying 1 or 100 blaster bolts is another thing though (not by the RAW, but IMO). |
Yes. But balancing that is the number of attackers that can target one person effectively is greater than the number of attackers that can melee with one person effectively. There is a limit to how many different melee attackers can get in reach at one time.
Cowboy Hat, I think the limit of three actions probably works better in Cortex because the step downs can only go from say D12 to D2 (five steps). Maximum five step decrease is about what you would see with most beginning Star Wars characters and without any force points being used. I think you need to look carefully at what will happen in combat with characters with skills in the 10-15D range. This is achievable for advanced characters routinely, but also achievable for beginning characters using a Force Point. |
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Cowboy Hat
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | One problem I see with what you want to implement is that running out of dodge can be a bit problematic. |
This is what differs Dodge from Parrying in a way. A good dive towards a cover will result in everyone having a harder time hitting you, no matter how many shoots at you (even if its one hundred storm troopers). Parrying 1 or 100 blaster bolts is another thing though (not by the RAW, but IMO). |
Yes. But balancing that is the number of attackers that can target one person effectively is greater than the number of attackers that can melee with one person effectively. There is a limit to how many different melee attackers can get in reach at one time.
Cowboy Hat, I think the limit of three actions probably works better in Cortex because the step downs can only go from say D12 to D2 (five steps). Maximum five step decrease is about what you would see with most beginning Star Wars characters and without any force points being used. I think you need to look carefully at what will happen in combat with characters with skills in the 10-15D range. This is achievable for advanced characters routinely, but also achievable for beginning characters using a Force Point. |
That's true. Rolling 15D though has never sat well with me though. D6 detractors always talk about how the game falls apart with characters who are rolling that many dice (beginners with Force Points aside). I don't know if I'd limit the 3 actions or put a limit on the amount of dice you could take in skills. Although that might well be fundamentally changing the star wars game more than I'd like (in which I'd probably be best just playing a cortex star wars game). Food for thought definitely.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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How do you determine the maximum number of actions? Is it on a round to round GM fiat basis, or does it depend on character stats (Dex, Per, Mech, etc)?
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Cowboy Hat
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | How do you determine the maximum number of actions? Is it on a round to round GM fiat basis, or does it depend on character stats (Dex, Per, Mech, etc)? |
As far as I'm aware in the Cortex book it's GM fiat basis. They say, consider what you can do in three seconds and that's why they suggest three actions maximum.
I imagine if you have very high skills your GM might allow you to take a fourth or perhaps a 5th depending on what it was and circumstance but if someone has D15 and are attempting to do 8 or so actions you're starting to look at someone moving at supernatural speeds.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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With the relatively high number of skill dice possible in D6 (Force points, Lightsaber Combat), it might be worth doubling the penalty for each action.
-1D/-2D/-4D/-8D, etc.
That way you still allow for more than 3 actions, but make doing a half dozen things rare. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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One of my former gms suggested doing something like that.. -1/-2/-4/-6/-8/-10
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