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vong
Jedi
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 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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well, this would only work in conjunction with a yslamari, but a increased gravity field.. jedi is stuck and cannot move, and cannot access the force 
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Regarding the Jedi trapped in the double geodesic D20 prison, I’m not sure I follow how a Jedi would be able to use Telekinesis to breach a geodesic, but wouldn’t be able to use Affect Mind on a jailer. But let’s assume that is the case. |
There were extenuating circumstances in all cases. When in the cage, the protagonist was either in close proximity to a very powerful Force user (Vader or the Emperor) or was subdued by ysalamiri. The idea in the story was that the construction of the cage was so durable that it rivaled capital ship armor plating, and was heavily reinforced. A Jedi would have to roll very high on Alter, use TK in such a way that he could rupture the inner and outer walls (no currently written Force powers allow that effect) and simultaneously roll Remain Conscious (since Control Breathing doesn't work in a vacuum), with MAPs, to stay conscious while he did so. The design and materials used were of sufficient strength that only an extremely powerful Jedi (on par with Vader, the Emperor, or Yoda) would be capable of generating enough power to breach both the inner and outer walls simultaneously while staying conscious from the loss of atmosphere. The protagonist did eventually gain sufficient strength to breach the cage, but by then, there were other, less tangible things that kept him from escaping.
| Quote: | The Jedi faces two problems (1) how to figure out more about his prison and (2) how to get out of it.
(1) How the Jedi can find out what is going on:
A) Use Postcognition to find out what happened after he went unconscious.
B) Use Farseeing to be able to see outside the inner geodesic, e.g. the outer geodesic and walkway and what is outside the outer geodesic. |
That's not how Farseeing works. Farseeing allows the Force to show you visions of your future, and is more like a GM tool than anything else. It isn't precise enough to be combined with TK as written. TK specifies that it can only be used line of sight. Even if you know a second wall is there, you can't manipulate the wall because you can't see it. It might be possible for an advanced TK power (as yet unwritten) to have that effect, but not so at the moment.
As for Postcognition, if you read into the details of the description, it simply says that, at the highest level of sensitivity, you perceive the event as if you were actually there. That means you can see, hear, smell, touch and taste as normally, but that doesn't necessarily extend to being able to detect pressure changes.
However, even assuming either of those methods would actually work, you are still facing an obscenely high difficulty roll to breach both walls and maintain enough air in the character's system to keep from passing out and ending up right back at square one.
| Quote: | (2) How the Jedi can then get out:
A) Use Control breathing to pull additional oxygen from the surrounding vacuum/oxygen mix (the inside of the inner D20 has normal air, hence the resulting mix has oxygen, just at less than the level necessary to remain conscious normally. Then breach the two barriers in succession, first inner than outer.
B) Use Farseeing to see the outer geodesic, breach that first, then breach the inner geodesic. The additional air outside the outer geodesic should prevent unconciousness.
C) Use Projective telepathy (or Lifebond) to summon outside help. |
The description for Control Breathing is specific that it doesn't work in vacuum, as there isn't enough air for it to "grab", and Farseeing doesn't work like that.
This was an AU story, in that it diverged from the course of the main movies and went off on its own direction. A main part of the plot was that the protagonist was basically alone, with no one to call on for help. In the case of the three different versions of this cage that he found himself in, one was in a maximum security detention level aboard the SSD Executor, one was in a sub-basement level of the Imperial Palace on Coruscant, and the final was on board a modified bulk freighter at an unknown location (and loaded with ysalamiri). In all three cases, the cage itself was just part of the overall scheme, with layers and layers of security and other entrapments designed to keep him there.
| Quote: | Bonus: How to make the prison even tougher:
Fill the space outside the outer geodesic with a non oxygenated gas, e.g. a noble gas such as helium. That way once the outer shell is breached there is still not enough oxygen for the Jedi to escape or to remain conscious. |
This would actually make things easier, since a noble gas would maintain the air pressure, which would eliminate the vacuum and allow Control Breathing to work.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | The Jedi faces two problems (1) how to figure out more about his prison and (2) how to get out of it.
(1) How the Jedi can find out what is going on:
A) Use Postcognition to find out what happened after he went unconscious.
B) Use Farseeing to be able to see outside the inner geodesic, e.g. the outer geodesic and walkway and what is outside the outer geodesic. |
That's not how Farseeing works. Farseeing allows the Force to show you visions of your future, and is more like a GM tool than anything else...
For seeing the future you are correct. Not for the past or the present however. Under the sense path power it is said that visions are allegorical; “to receive specific details the farseeing power must be used.” If used to view the past or the present farseeing can be up to 100% accurate “complete with minor, almost trivial details.”
It isn't precise enough to be combined with TK as written. TK specifies that it can only be used line of sight.
Actually TK says “Target must be in sight of the Jedi.” not in line of sight. If the Jedi can see a detailed image in the present that is in sight and TK could be used.
Even if you know a second wall is there, you can't manipulate the wall because you can't see it.
See above comment. You can see it so you can manipulate it.And even if you can't see it, if you know it is there and what it does you can act to prevent it.
As for Postcognition, if you read into the details of the description, it simply says that, at the highest level of sensitivity, you perceive the event as if you were actually there. That means you can see, hear, smell, touch and taste as normally, but that doesn't necessarily extend to being able to detect pressure changes.
You would see what happened to your character. The escaping air would create a visible wind. A bright Jedi could figure out there was a vacuum. then act accordingly the second time.
However, even assuming either of those methods would actually work, you are still facing an obscenely high difficulty roll to breach both walls and maintain enough air in the character's system to keep from passing out and ending up right back at square one.
If it's obscenely high, i.e. impossible for the players, then the mechanism of why it will never be breached it is uninteresting to me from a RPG prespective. Might as well use the Force Cage from Dark Empire. And if the author's character could never breach it, I would think the story would be a bit dull.
| Quote: | (2) How the Jedi can then get out:
A) Use Control breathing to pull additional oxygen from the surrounding vacuum/oxygen mix (the inside of the inner D20 has normal air, hence the resulting mix has oxygen, just at less than the level necessary to remain conscious normally. Then breach the two barriers in succession, first inner than outer.
B) Use Farseeing to see the outer geodesic, breach that first, then breach the inner geodesic. The additional air outside the outer geodesic should prevent unconciousness.
C) Use Projective telepathy (or Lifebond) to summon outside help. |
The description for Control Breathing is specific that it doesn't work in vacuum, as there isn't enough air for it to "grab", and Farseeing doesn't work like that.
I've alrady explained farseeing. Reread the rules for seeing the past and present. Regarding control breathing it states it's pulling oxygen out of the environment. Vacuum + air does not equal vacuum. If there is virtually no oxygen at all and it is vritually a complete vacuum the Jedi dies rather than merely falls unconcioius. You stated he would fall unconcious.
This was an AU story, in that it diverged from the course of the main movies and went off on its own direction. A main part of the plot was that the protagonist was basically alone, with no one to call on for help. In the case of the three different versions of this cage that he found himself in, one was in a maximum security detention level aboard the SSD Executor, one was in a sub-basement level of the Imperial Palace on Coruscant, and the final was on board a modified bulk freighter at an unknown location (and loaded with ysalamiri). In all three cases, the cage itself was just part of the overall scheme, with layers and layers of security and other entrapments designed to keep him there.
So did he ever escape?
| Quote: | Bonus: How to make the prison even tougher:
Fill the space outside the outer geodesic with a non oxygenated gas, e.g. a noble gas such as helium. That way once the outer shell is breached there is still not enough oxygen for the Jedi to escape or to remain conscious. |
This would actually make things easier, since a noble gas would maintain the air pressure, which would eliminate the vacuum and allow Control Breathing to work. |
You said the two domes were arranged to be stronger due to having a vacuum on one side. If the outer sphere has a vacuum on both sides then it is not strengthened by the outside pressure. I suggested maintaining the vacuum on one side as the designer said, but replacing air on the other (outer) side with an oxygen-less gas e.g. helium. That shouldn't make things easier. Am I confused about the original design? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | For seeing the future you are correct. Not for the past or the present however. Under the sense path power it is said that visions are allegorical; “to receive specific details the farseeing power must be used.” If used to view the past or the present farseeing can be up to 100% accurate “complete with minor, almost trivial details.”
It isn't precise enough to be combined with TK as written. TK specifies that it can only be used line of sight.
Actually TK says “Target must be in sight of the Jedi.” not in line of sight. If the Jedi can see a detailed image in the present that is in sight and TK could be used.
Even if you know a second wall is there, you can't manipulate the wall because you can't see it.
See above comment. You can see it so you can manipulate it.And even if you can't see it, if you know it is there and what it does you can act to prevent it. |
I have an issue with that. TK is an Alter only power, and specifies that the target must be in sight of the Jedi. To me, that means that a character can dodge a Jedi's TK attempt by getting behind full cover. Once the character is behind cover, the Jedi can't see him, and can't use TK on him. He may be able to use TK to remove the cover, but he has to be able to actually see his target, because this is not a Sense and Alter power. Without Sense, the Jedi is dependent on his normal human senses to guide TK, and if he can't see his target, he can't affect it.
Farseeing may be able to show the Jedi the hidden object, so that he knows that it is there, but it falls under the same restrictions; if you can't see it, you can't manipulate it. You may know exactly where it is, and exactly what it looks like, but the ability to physically perceive it in real time with your own senses is essential. I have no problem with more advanced TK skills (on the C/S/A level) that allow a Jedi to manipulate objects that he can't see, but it is not possible with TK as written.
I don't want to spoil the story too much, but the protagonist eventually reached a point where he used a variation on Force Push to physically shove against both walls simultaneously, and was on the verge of breaking out, but then was confronted with threats of a more personal nature, showing that he was in a cage far more elaborate than a double-walled cell.
Seriously, the best way to see the cage and all the details is to read the story, which can be found here. I wish the prequels had been half as well thought out as this story. George would've been well served to hire this guy as a scriptwriter. The cell is only one facet of a web of entrapment, and apparently it loses something in translation. If you have the time available and don't mind reading a SW fan fiction that takes the entire SWU in a different direction, check this story out.
| Quote: | | If it's obscenely high, i.e. impossible for the players, then the mechanism of why it will never be breached it is uninteresting to me from a RPG prespective. Might as well use the Force Cage from Dark Empire. And if the author's character could never breach it, I would think the story would be a bit dull. |
It's not that it couldn't be breached. It was merely very difficult. The cell scenario was actually intended to drive the protagonist to the Dark Side, and it was only through his fall that he gained the power to breach the cell.
| Quote: | | I've alrady explained farseeing. Reread the rules for seeing the past and present. Regarding control breathing it states it's pulling oxygen out of the environment. Vacuum + air does not equal vacuum. If there is virtually no oxygen at all and it is vritually a complete vacuum the Jedi dies rather than merely falls unconcioius. You stated he would fall unconcious. |
I guess I didn't explain the cell as clearly as I'd thought. The vacuum between the cell walls requires a pump system to maintain integrity. The walls themselves are designed to use the pull of the vacuum to maintain airtight integrity, and any attempt to breach the inner wall exposes the limited air volume of the interior cell to the mechanically maintained vacuum of the inner space. The air gets sucked out into the vacuum, the character can't breathe, he passes out. Once he passes out, TK stops affecting the walls, and they snap back into place, reestablishing the airtight seal.
| Quote: | | So did he ever escape? |
I don't want to go into too much detail, but with Ysalamiri around, his captors got lax, thinking he was a one-trick pony, and he used their inattention against them.
| Quote: | | You said the two domes were arranged to be stronger due to having a vacuum on one side. If the outer sphere has a vacuum on both sides then it is not strengthened by the outside pressure. I suggested maintaining the vacuum on one side as the designer said, but replacing air on the other (outer) side with an oxygen-less gas e.g. helium. That shouldn't make things easier. Am I confused about the original design? |
My bad. I thought you were talking about replacing the vacuum with an inert gas. I can't speak for the author and the crew who brainstormed to help him design this, but I think he made it as tough as it needed to be. In his story, this cell was sufficient to keep most Jedi contained, and I'd like to incorporate it someday because it is both simplistic and genius all at once.
I think the main issue is in whether or not you think its possible. Based on what I've read of the Force powers as written, this is sufficient to keep most Jedi contained, by exploiting some key weaknesses. Jedi aren't invincible and all powerful, and their power has limits. Build something thick enough and tough enough and tie the pieces together like a bunker, then add in the vacuum space in between, and the Jedi will be faced with a very difficult problem. He may be able to figure out how he is caged, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to do anything about it. Plus, anyone with the resources to put together a cell like this is not just going to set it up in a warehouse and hire a security guard to watch it. It'll be guarded by elite soldiers, with multiple layers of security, most likely with training on how to put down Jedi Knights in the event that they do escape. Electronic security itself will most likely be multi-faceted, with multiple key codes required to open multiple security points. A Jedi would be hard pressed to keep a large security team under his control using Affect Mind, as every mind he affects incurs a MAP. Finally, the only people in the story who go to the trouble of building this cell also keep either a very powerful Force user or a bunch of Ysalamiri in proximity to the cell, so any Force based escape attempt will most likely result in a direct confrontation with whoever put the character in the cell in the first place, so they are back to square one.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps instead of less air, it is pure oxygen.. linked to spark emitters.. so at first 'detection' of force use' the spark emitters ignite and cause all the oxygen to burn!
| Quote: | | well, this would only work in conjunction with a yslamari, but a increased gravity field.. jedi is stuck and cannot move, and cannot access the force Very Happy |
Why wouldn't they be able to access the force?
| Quote: | | I have an issue with that. TK is an Alter only power, and specifies that the target must be in sight of the Jedi. To me, that means that a character can dodge a Jedi's TK attempt by getting behind full cover. Once the character is behind cover, the Jedi can't see him, and can't use TK on him. He may be able to use TK to remove the cover, but he has to be able to actually see his target, because this is not a Sense and Alter power. Without Sense, the Jedi is dependent on his normal human senses to guide TK, and if he can't see his target, he can't affect it. |
Since that mon cal female jedi (can't remeber her name) used TK to pull each little nanite out of Mon mothma, i can easily 'see' them using it where they can't see themselves..
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I have an issue with that. TK is an Alter only power, and specifies that the target must be in sight of the Jedi. |
I guess I wasn't clear.
Step one, use Farseeing to see (in the recent past why pushing on the wall knocks you out). Ah, ha...the air leaves the rooom when the wall is breached. Oh look, beyond the first wall is a gap and a second wall.
Step two, use Farseeing in the present to see the outer wall. Then with MAPs use TK to breach the outer wall. Now the vacuum goes the other direction and is diffused by the air outside the prison. Possibly, as a bonus, knocking out the jailers too.
Step three, drop Farseeing. Use TK to breach the inner wall.
Step four, force jump or walk away.
| Quote: | | I guess I didn't explain the cell as clearly as I'd thought. The vacuum between the cell walls requires a pump system to maintain integrity. The walls themselves are designed to use the pull of the vacuum to maintain airtight integrity, and any attempt to breach the inner wall exposes the limited air volume of the interior cell to the mechanically maintained vacuum of the inner space. The air gets sucked out into the vacuum, the character can't breathe, he passes out. Once he passes out, TK stops affecting the walls, and they snap back into place, reestablishing the airtight seal. |
No you explained it clearly, I got all that (except the capacity of the pump). Unless the pump system is able to instantly overcome the immediate change of pressure of all the gas from the interior geodesic moving into the space between the geodesics, what you will, if only for a short time have, is a thin mixture of the inner air. Unconciousness would not be instantaneous and control breathing should extend the time that the Jedi is able to remain conscious. That may give the Jedi time to use alter on the second geodesic. That's all I meant.
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| Quote: | | So did he ever escape? |
I don't want to go into too much detail, but with Ysalamiri around, his captors got lax, thinking he was a one-trick pony, and he used their inattention against them. |
I'll assume that means eventually, yes. 
I think the cage problem is interesting. I just think that players will find it more enjoyable if there is not just one solution on how to get out. I assume the point is for them to have fun trying to solve the problem, not to make it essentially unsolvable. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | I guess I wasn't clear.
Step one, use Farseeing to see (in the recent past why pushing on the wall knocks you out). Ah, ha...the air leaves the rooom when the wall is breached. Oh look, beyond the first wall is a gap and a second wall.
Step two, use Farseeing in the present to see the outer wall. Then with MAPs use TK to breach the outer wall. Now the vacuum goes the other direction and is diffused by the air outside the prison. Possibly, as a bonus, knocking out the jailers too.
Step three, drop Farseeing. Use TK to breach the inner wall.
Step four, force jump or walk away. |
I think you're reading way too much into Farseeing. The RAW does not accurately reflect what we see in the canon, as Farseeing is supposed to represent the spontaneous visions that Jedi have while meditating. In the RAW, it reads more like clairvoyance.
However, going by the RAW, a simple success on Farseeing would not be enough. The Jedi would have to beat his Sense difficulty by 20+ points to have perception even approaching the equivalent of "in sight of the Jedi" (i.e. a minimum accuracy of 90%, per the Farseeing RAW). On top of that, he would still have to roll very high on Alter to breach the outer wall.
Although I do not think what your proposing is feasible in the canon (based on the way Farseeing is seen to be used in the films), WEG's loose wording could be interpreted to allow your plan to work. The key issue, however, is difficulty numbers. You're talking about a minimum of Very Difficult on the Sense roll for Farseeing, plus the strength of the wall itself would require an Alter of 11D-12D to successfully breach it, plus a -2D MAP for rolling Control, Sense and Alter in the same round. Plus, it would have to be in the same round because Farseeing can't be kept up.
Ultimately, it's a moot point. The protagonist did ultimately gain enough power to breach the cell, but by that point, all of his Forces skills were 10D+ minimum, and it's highly likely that he had to use a DSP Force Point to do it. It's one thing to say in theory how something could or could not be done, but it is quite another to have the power to do it.
| Quote: | | No you explained it clearly, I got all that (except the capacity of the pump). Unless the pump system is able to instantly overcome the immediate change of pressure of all the gas from the interior geodesic moving into the space between the geodesics, what you will, if only for a short time have, is a thin mixture of the inner air. Unconciousness would not be instantaneous and control breathing should extend the time that the Jedi is able to remain conscious. That may give the Jedi time to use alter on the second geodesic. That's all I meant. |
You also need to factor in that a sudden drop in pressure to a near vacuum also inflicts physical damage, which also affects whether or not a power can be kept up. But even if that wasn't a factor, you are still looking at one more power that would need to be kept up while still having to make very high Sense and Alter rolls.
Again, the idea here is not that the cage is inescapable, merely that it is very very hard to escape from. A character would need either massive strength in the Force or a lot of ingenuity mixed with some knowledge of how the cell was designed.
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vong
Jedi
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Perhaps instead of less air, it is pure oxygen.. linked to spark emitters.. so at first 'detection' of force use' the spark emitters ignite and cause all the oxygen to burn!
| Quote: | | well, this would only work in conjunction with a yslamari, but a increased gravity field.. jedi is stuck and cannot move, and cannot access the force Very Happy |
Why wouldn't they be able to access the force? |
Other wise TK you can just turn it off.. if you can find some way to prevent them from turning it off, go for it. Jedi could use concentration + str to try to stand up. could also use affect mind.. lots of ways to get out. if you can couteract those in another way then will work just as well
maybe just turning the setting up high enough that they HAVE to use concentration + strength each round to stay alive.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps instead of less air, it is pure oxygen.. linked to spark emitters.. so at first 'detection' of force use' the spark emitters ignite and cause all the oxygen to burn! |
Because the idea behind the cell is to keep the captive alive. A captive who tries to escape and trips this system gets incinerated before he knows whats happening.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| vong wrote: |
Other wise TK you can just turn it off.. if you can find some way to prevent them from turning it off, go for it. Jedi could use concentration + str to try to stand up. could also use affect mind.. lots of ways to get out. if you can couteract those in another way then will work just as well
maybe just turning the setting up high enough that they HAVE to use concentration + strength each round to stay alive. |
Precicely. The grav does not stop them using anything. BUT unless a switch is nearby (or within sight), they won't have a frame of ref to turn it back off..
| Quote: | | Because the idea behind the cell is to keep the captive alive. A captive who tries to escape and trips this system gets incinerated before he knows whats happening |
And he will stay alive as long as he does nuthin stupid to break out!
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I think you're reading way too much into Farseeing... |
Just what's in the RAW. 
| Quote: | | The RAW does not accurately reflect what we see in the canon, as Farseeing is supposed to represent the spontaneous visions that Jedi have while meditating. |
If you read Sense Path that covers the vague visions you describe.
| Quote: | | Although I do not think what your proposing is feasible in the canon (based on the way Farseeing is seen to be used in the films), WEG's loose wording could be interpreted to allow your plan to work. |
Yep. Works under the RAW. If skills are high enough and with at least 1-2 force points. That's all I'm looking for. I wasn't really trying to find a canon force solution to a non-canon force prison.
I hadn't seen any difficulty numbers assigned to the TK required, but 11-12D is doable for very tough PCs with a FP. Maybe even with -2 MAPs. (I guess I forgot that you actually use the MAPs in the RAW for force powers.)
| Quote: | | Ultimately, it's a moot point. The protagonist did ultimately gain enough power to breach the cell, but by that point, all of his Forces skills were 10D+ minimum, and it's highly likely that he had to use a DSP Force Point to do it. It's one thing to say in theory how something could or could not be done, but it is quite another to have the power to do it. |
If 10D+ skills are required it is unlikely to ever be an interesting puzzle for any PCs that we run. They will probably never get force skills that high. After 10+ years of frequent play none of our PCs reached more than 6D or 7D for force skills. Thus to use the cage for them I'd need to adjust the difficulty to match the PC's skill.
| Quote: | | You also need to factor in that a sudden drop in pressure to a near vacuum also inflicts physical damage, which also affects whether or not a power can be kept up. |
Agreed. But if it inflicts damage the Jedi is going to know he was exposed to vacuum so that will hardly be a suprise and I thought the suprise knockout was part of the puzzle. 
| Quote: | | Again, the idea here is not that the cage is inescapable... |
All I was trying to do was point out that there were methods to allow escape. I don't quite see why you find that so concerning. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | I think you're reading way too much into Farseeing... |
Just what's in the RAW. |
If you will excuse the play on words, just because it's RAW, doesn't make it right. I would have no problem with a more advanced TK skill, with Farseeing as a prerequisite, that would allow a Jedi to manipulate objects that he couldn't see with his own eyes in real time, but personally, I'm not willing to stretch the rules this far just because WEG worded something vaguely. I also have issues with Farseeing being used to visualize something that the Jedi may have never seen, or otherwise has no idea that it exists. I can't think of a single moment in the canon where this happens as described in the RAW.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | I think you're reading way too much into Farseeing... |
Just what's in the RAW. |
If you will excuse the play on words, just because it's RAW, doesn't make it right. I would have no problem with a more advanced TK skill, with Farseeing as a prerequisite, that would allow a Jedi to manipulate objects that he couldn't see with his own eyes in real time, but personally, I'm not willing to stretch the rules this far just because WEG worded something vaguely. I also have issues with Farseeing being used to visualize something that the Jedi may have never seen, or otherwise has no idea that it exists. I can't think of a single moment in the canon where this happens as described in the RAW. |
I have no problem with plays on words. But, canon only means Lucas Arts or a related firm made some money off it or spent some money authorizing it. The fact that something is canon is no guarantee it is interesting, dramatic, consistent, or right for all campaigns. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:06 am Post subject: |
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That is true bren.. Many seem to not like the dark empire comics but have little issue with the aspect of luke turning to the darkside, and being redeamed..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That is true bren.. Many seem to not like the dark empire comics but have little issue with the aspect of luke turning to the darkside, and being redeamed.. |
Don't forget that the technical definition of the canon is "the films and any material that doesn't contradict the films". If you feel that Luke's little trip through the Dark Side drive-thru carwash is a contradiction of Yoda's "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny," I certainly wouldn't complain. I've always wondered if there was some sort of private bet between Kevin J. Anderson and Tom Veitch / Cam Kennedy over who could make the most infantile, absolutely cheesy and idiotic version of a Star Wars EU story and still sell the most copies.
That being said, I still have an issue with Farseeing being used this way, just because of a loophole in WEG's description. I think I have established something of a reputation on this Forum for wanting Jedi to be more powerful than the RAW allows, so when I say that I think you're pushing it too far... Well, that's sort of like you know you have a marijuana problem when Snoop Dogg tells you maybe you shouldn't smoke so much.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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