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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: A Cage To Hold A Force User |
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I'm a big fan of the Star Wars fan fiction works of a particular author who goes by the handle blank101. One of his stories featured a very interesting premise for keeping a Jedi or other Force user locked up.
The cage itself is relatively simple in design: two geodesic spheres, one inside the other (I picture something looking a pair of hollow 20-sided dice). The each sphere is composed of a series of extremely durable interlocking sections, cabled together, countersunk and reinforced. The actual cell is inside the inner sphere, which is linked to the outside via a corridor between the two shells.
The key to the cage is that, when the inner and outer doors are sealed, the space between the two spheres is depressurized, so that it is as close to a vacuum as possible The connecting corridor is louvered so that it is depressurized as well, and the doors of the corridor are designed to open away from the vacuum, so the presence of the vacuum actually seals them shut. Each sphere is designed so that the presence of the vacuum reinforces its strength by binding the pieces more tightly together.
A Jedi who has no knowledge of how the cage functions might try to use TK to breach the cage, but as he pushes, he breaches the airtight integrity of the inner shell, and atmosphere from the inner sphere is sucked into the intervening vacuum. If he pushes too hard, he will eventually pass out from lack of oxygen (no existing Force power allows a Jedi to breathe in a vacuum, and Specter of the Past by Timothy Zahn indicates that even a Jedi of Luke's power can be stymied by exposure to it). From the character's POV, he would use TK to try to force the cell wall open, then pass out from lack of oxygen and wake up several minutes later, still in the cell, wondering what happened. Also, because TK is line of sight, he would be unable to affect the outer wall unless he could actually see it.
A Jedi of sufficient power (on par with Luke, Vader, the Emperor, or one of the other high ranking masters) could conceivably breach both the inner and outer spheres at once and break the vacuum seal by brute force, but in the story, the average Jedi doesn't have that kind of power.
I have no game rules written up for how such a cage would work, but the idea is well researched (this guy actually lives next door to a NASA scientist), and might be a fun trick for an evil GM to throw at his players. Simple version would be to set an impossibly high difficulty or Strength roll for the integrity of the cage, and if the Jedi rolls TK to breach the cage and fails, he takes Stun damage equal to his Alter roll for TK.
Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Hellcat
Grand Moff
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 11921
Location: New England
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:58 am Post subject: |
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The Universal Energy Cage. It was made to hold Force-users, particulary Jedi
Model: Imperial Universal Energy Cage
Type: Enclosed prisoner transfer system
Scale: Character
Cost: 100,000
Availability: X (restricted to legal governments)
Move: 15; 45 kmh
Game Notes: Energy cage encloses prisoner In a force field with a Strength of up to 15D (unit only applies as much energy as necessary to restrain prisoner, so the energy level is often much tower when not being resisted). Somehow, the cage emanates a special type of energy that blocks Force energies and similar mental energies with an effectiveness of up to 15D. The unit has a special repulsor unit keeping the prisoner suspended in the center of the cage. This bottom mounted unit also supplies oxygen to the prisoner (there are no provisions for food and water; it is presumed that a Jedi will go into hibernation if he or she spends a long time in the cage).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Variety is the spice of life. I actually saw a player yawn when his character was in a Universal Energy Cage. This is the sort of thing to make them stop and say "Wait, what?"
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Personally i would have liked the force cage to dole out continual damage to the force user, keeing him from even concentrating to activate any force powers..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Personally i would have liked the force cage to dole out continual damage to the force user, keeing him from even concentrating to activate any force powers.. |
That would make sense.
One of the reasons I liked the cage idea is that it sort of intertwined with the description of the Mandalorian Dungeon Ships described in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, where they described techniques used to keep Jedi confined, such as disrupting their ability to concentrate and use the Force, or to force them into a Hibernation Trance.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Knock them out and then keep them sedated!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:31 am Post subject: |
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In the story, the cage was designed this way because a lot of important things happened while the main character was locked inside the cage. He couldn't just be knocked out or continuously getting zapped by a stun effect; he needed to be mobile within the cage and capable of physical interaction with his captors for interrogation purposes.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:53 am Post subject: |
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If that was the case,what prevents him using Affect mind, dim others senses or the like to get them to let him out?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If that was the case,what prevents him using Affect mind, dim others senses or the like to get them to let him out? |
At various times, a tailored drug that dampened his concentration (plus the fact that the Emperor was the one keeping him in the cell), or the presence of Ysalamiri in close proximity (which made his escape from that cage even more impressive since he had to use his wits to do it).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: |
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I've actually been corresponding with the author, in the interests of using some of his tech ideas in a SW-RPG campaign. This is his reply vis-a-vis my questions regarding the nature of the cell:
| blank101 wrote: | Yeah, the cell would in fact be a complete sphere, with a floor built halfway through at its widest point, meaning that to the person inside, it would appear to be a dome rather than a sphere (otherwise he'd be walking on a curved floor!). In both incarnations in the story, the layout of the external access floors around it, which would also be made to intersect it halfway, would mean that you would only see it as a dome from the outside as well, though it would in fact exist as a structure both above and below that center point. I guess you could bypass that by building a solid-cast slab to a few meters thick, but the point at which the half-dome and the slab were joined would always be a weak point. Then again, you're assuming that the Jedi interned within knew how the cell worked.
The whole vacuum within a double-skinned dome idea was an attempt to not use technology against a Jedi, but to use a more 'natural force', so that it would be harder to counter with the Force itself, also a natural entity. I've worked a lot on and off with vacuums, and it was quite good at one point to have four specialists around a table all drawing on the same paper pad, trying to work out the details. It was even more fun when, a year and a half later, we all sat round scratching our heads trying to work out how someone would get *out* of this cell, that we'd designed to be unbreakable. In the end, I had to cheat slightly and have the dome be built under duress and at speed, so that there were flaws in its construction which would enable an escape.
As a concept, the cell remains sound, so could be used in roleplay to hold a Jedi. It might be particularly interesting if they had to work out why they couldn't force the door. If they brought everything to bear on it, they might just be able to force it, but in doing so they'd cause decompression of the cell and knock themselves out. When they came round, they could easily find yourself in the same cell with the system reset, and probably wouldn't even know what had happened!
We worked out that in theory, you could do the mathematical equation which would give you the exact volume of vacuum needed in relation to the volume of air in the cell in order to render anyone who broke the inner wall unconscious without killing them. That volume would dictate the distance apart that the inner and outer walls were built. It is, of course, perfectly possible for someone to exist for a few minutes in vacuum with no ill effects, provided they were prepared. If they weren't (ie, if they were put into this cell without knowing exactly what type of cell it was), then they would suffer injuries, at the very least to the fine alveoli in the lungs from rapid decompression which would expand the air in them too quickly, ripping them apart (coughing blood, short of breath). Obviously, small blood vessels close to the surface of the skin would also rupture, and the eardrums would be damaged, as well as fine vessels in the eyes (possibly the lenses themselves would displace, so you may end up temporarily deaf and semi-blind). I'm not really that up on this kind of thing, but fortunately - and I swear this is true - I live next door to a rocket scientist! He does bits and pieces for NASA and is my go-to guy when I need to this kind of information, like surviving decompression or recompression (each as dangerous as the other), or the finer points of an EMP or lasers (he's worked on weapons laser technology for the military). He doesn't ever give this for free - I have to go to him with the research already, or else he says, 'Go find out what you actually want to ask me first', but he's very useful 
What I described as happening to [Character A] would be what would actually happen to someone experiencing slow decompression and rapid recompression, though there were proviso's. Firstly, and most importantly, the cell [Character B] built was never in total vacuum; it only came close (remember that the door on [Character B]'s version of the cell relied on a mechanical lock because the vacuum system was insufficient to work as a reliable vacuum-based lock as it did on the original), plus [Character A] used [spoiler redacted]. That would help to alleviate many of the more acute dangers.
The only thing I didn't mention, which would only happen in total vacuum anyway, is that of course all the fluids in the body would come out of the nearest available orifice, so you'd simultaneously vomit, pee and ?*! Nice. The reason that the guards would be rendered unconscious for longer - or possibly even killed - would be that unlike [Character A], they'd not been prepared ([Character A] had purposely hyperventilated prior to the event, and had allowed the oxygen in his lungs to slowly leave his body under increasing pressure, maintaining only a small amount in them to stop them collapsing in vacuum, and to alleviate the danger of destroying the alveoli on rapid recompression, when the existing air would decrease in volume with sufficient speed to rip the tissue apart). |
I was very impressed with the amount of thought that went into this, and the ingeniousness of doing so in a way that uses such basic physics would be worth duplicating in a game, if only to make the characters sweat a little.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the Jedi trapped in the double geodesic D20 prison, I’m not sure I follow how a Jedi would be able to use Telekinesis to breach a geodesic, but wouldn’t be able to use Affect Mind on a jailer. But let’s assume that is the case. The Jedi faces two problems (1) how to figure out more about his prison and (2) how to get out of it.
(1) How the Jedi can find out what is going on:
A) Use Postcognition to find out what happened after he went unconscious.
B) Use Farseeing to be able to see outside the inner geodesic, e.g. the outer geodesic and walkway and what is outside the outer geodesic.
(2) How the Jedi can then get out:
A) Use Control breathing to pull additional oxygen from the surrounding vacuum/oxygen mix (the inside of the inner D20 has normal air, hence the resulting mix has oxygen, just at less than the level necessary to remain conscious normally. Then breach the two barriers in succession, first inner than outer.
B) Use Farseeing to see the outer geodesic, breach that first, then breach the inner geodesic. The additional air outside the outer geodesic should prevent unconciousness.
C) Use Projective telepathy (or Lifebond) to summon outside help.
Bonus: How to make the prison even tougher:
Fill the space outside the outer geodesic with a non oxygenated gas, e.g. a noble gas such as helium. That way once the outer shell is breached there is still not enough oxygen for the Jedi to escape or to remain conscious. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Or coat it in something that blocks the force passing through it.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Or coat it in something that blocks the force passing through it. |
Personally those EU materials always remind me of kryptonite and the Yslamari remind of D&D antimagical creatures. Blech!  If the Force really binds everything together, I have a difficult time understanding how anything is unaffected. It seems like discovering, in the real world, an element or alloy that is unaffected by gravity.
They seem to me to be inelegant methods of dealing with the Force (Jedi or Sith). But be that as it may...
I took the point of the 2xD20 cage to be a prison that was very difficult, but not impossible for the Jedi to escape. (Perhaps inspired by Magneto's prison in X2.) If there is no way out, it doesn't fulfill the authors intent.
If you just want the Jedi not to be able to escape.
(1) Kill them.
(2) Sedate them.
(3) Remove the oxygen etc. to a level that forces hibernation trance.
(4) Have an automated system providing repeated shocks or stuns that prevents effective concentration and use of force powers - note the repeated shocks may irritate the Jedi and cause a loss of control and reaching out to the Dark Side which may facilitate escape as well as possibly causing a turn to the Dark Side.
But none of these really require the geodesic setup that crmcneill mentioned, though I suppose it might be part of or a back up for 2, 3, or 4. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Additionally you have to remember that some races such as the Given or Kel Dor are vacuum resistant so Jedi of that race will find the cage less difficult to escape from.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | Additionally you have to remember that some races such as the Given or Kel Dor are vacuum resistant so Jedi of that race will find the cage less difficult to escape from. |
Good point.
I guess if it is a Dungeon Ship it could have different types of cages and restraint systems, with everything all customized and unique looking. Maybe some inside a D20 and others inside a D12.  |
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