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ZzaphodD
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 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Low bonuses, low risks (to begin with)..just add up those dark side 'pips' from time to time, but most of the time you will be fine (honestly, I promise).... |
What would some example bonuses and associated dice rolls look like to see if is 0 or say 1 DSpip?
I want to understand a bit about how risky it is so I can get a sense if it is tempting enough without being too easy to avoid long term. |
The mechanics are still under development.
The principle will be as follows:
When using a force skill you can opt to add a number of dice. My idea is that you may add 1/3 of you Control maximum, but its really pulled out of the air.
Depending on how many dice you add, you will roll an opposed willpower check vs a number of dice based on the number of bonus dice you use. If you pass, your fine. If you miss you will get 1 or 2 Dark Side 'pips' depending on what you roll. Perhaps if you totally screw it up (ie end up below zero) you will get a full DSP. Otherwise the idea is that you should not get a full DSP, to make it seem less dangerous.
Trying to incorporate gharkals idea about rolling 1:s on these dice, of not by the letter. Probably a 1 on the extra dice will mean an exta 1D on the Dark Side roll.
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Random Numbers
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Low bonuses, low risks (to begin with)..just add up those dark side 'pips' from time to time, but most of the time you will be fine (honestly, I promise).... |
What would some example bonuses and associated dice rolls look like to see if is 0 or say 1 DSpip?
I want to understand a bit about how risky it is so I can get a sense if it is tempting enough without being too easy to avoid long term. |
The mechanics are still under development.
The principle will be as follows:
When using a force skill you can opt to add a number of dice. My idea is that you may add 1/3 of you Control maximum, but its really pulled out of the air.
Depending on how many dice you add, you will roll an opposed willpower check vs a number of dice based on the number of bonus dice you use. If you pass, your fine. If you miss you will get 1 or 2 Dark Side 'pips' depending on what you roll. Perhaps if you totally screw it up (ie end up below zero) you will get a full DSP. Otherwise the idea is that you should not get a full DSP, to make it seem less dangerous.
Trying to incorporate gharkals idea about rolling 1:s on these dice, of not by the letter. Probably a 1 on the extra dice will mean an exta 1D on the Dark Side roll. |
Take my character for instance.
I have Control 5D and Alter of 5D and 2D from dsp. With 2D extra I would hit 9D for my Telekinetics. I now have to beat 2D with my 4D in willpower. Not exactly an impossible feat. And when I get 5D in willpower it will be even easier.
Sure, it's not impossible to fail, but are you not setting the bar a tidbit too low? The one thing that would make me hesitate is that one time in six you roll a 1 on the dice and get an extra dice to compete against.
The mechanics seem good and I never do anything useful anyway, but imagine our dark Johnny Walker with 6D Control and loads of dsp and a really high willpower.
Not that I'm complaining, I'm never going back to that bizarre holding cell of yours and I will use whatever it takes to stay clear of it 
edit: Off course I expect us to be using this a lot... on multiple powers every round. So maybe we will go Pip of this anyway!
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Low bonuses, low risks (to begin with)..just add up those dark side 'pips' from time to time, but most of the time you will be fine (honestly, I promise).... |
What would some example bonuses and associated dice rolls look like to see if is 0 or say 1 DSpip?
I want to understand a bit about how risky it is so I can get a sense if it is tempting enough without being too easy to avoid long term. |
The mechanics are still under development.
The principle will be as follows:
When using a force skill you can opt to add a number of dice. My idea is that you may add 1/3 of you Control maximum, but its really pulled out of the air.
Depending on how many dice you add, you will roll an opposed willpower check vs a number of dice based on the number of bonus dice you use. If you pass, your fine. If you miss you will get 1 or 2 Dark Side 'pips' depending on what you roll. Perhaps if you totally screw it up (ie end up below zero) you will get a full DSP. Otherwise the idea is that you should not get a full DSP, to make it seem less dangerous.
Trying to incorporate gharkals idea about rolling 1:s on these dice, of not by the letter. Probably a 1 on the extra dice will mean an exta 1D on the Dark Side roll. |
Take my character for instance.
I have Control 5D and Alter of 5D and 2D from dsp. With 2D extra I would hit 9D for my Telekinetics. I now have to beat 2D with my 4D in willpower. Not exactly an impossible feat. And when I get 5D in willpower it will be even easier.
Sure, it's not impossible to fail, but are you not setting the bar a tidbit too low? The one thing that would make me hesitate is that one time in six you roll a 1 on the dice and get an extra dice to compete against.
The mechanics seem good and I never do anything useful anyway, but imagine our dark Johnny Walker with 6D Control and loads of dsp and a really high willpower.
Not that I'm complaining, I'm never going back to that bizarre holding cell of yours and I will use whatever it takes to stay clear of it
edit: Off course I expect us to be using this a lot... on multiple powers every round. So maybe we will go Pip of this anyway! |
I didnt say the opposed number of dice would be exactly the number of bonus dice.. 
Even if that is the fact in the end, Im thinking of some kind of cumulative effect where the difficulty number to resist is raised over time. Perhaps it will start as your example above, but the next time you will have to add +1D to the opposed Dark Side roll above you number of bonus dice.
Anyways, adding the idea that 1:s on the bonus dice adds another 1D to the WP roll will make this a bit unpredictable, which is a good thing.
In any case, if you are already using bonus dice from your DSPs, your chance of resisting will be lower. The Dark Side allready have you in its grips, and will not happily give you any freebies.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | No it's SWD6 again
It might also be that the garhkal/bren method with re rolling d6 for dsp only is easier and more convenient.
Although I have no idea what method Zaphod prefers, I really look forward to trying this mechanic in our group of misfits. |
Why not mix it..
2d6 spread
2-4 = no effect, ignore the 1 on the dsp die
5-6 = dark side halves your result due to energy backlash.
7-9 = dark side backlash causes 4d damage
10 = dark side backlash causes 6d damage
11&12 = gain a DSP.
| Quote: | Depending on how many dice you add, you will roll an opposed willpower check vs a number of dice based on the number of bonus dice you use. If you pass, your fine. If you miss you will get 1 or 2 Dark Side 'pips' depending on what you roll. Perhaps if you totally screw it up (ie end up below zero) you will get a full DSP. Otherwise the idea is that you should not get a full DSP, to make it seem less dangerous.
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Prob i see there, is as long as your willpower is high enough, you never have to fear ever gaining any pips, let alone turning to the darkside.. so it effectively gives the person free dice.
Heck i could even see it be a ticker.
Each time you accept the bonus, but do not do a FULL ON DSP worthy event with it (say you used it to assist in plotting a hyper jump so you could all excape getting blown up), you gain 1%.. each addit is cumulative, then you roll %dice.. if the roll is less than your total, you have done enough to gain that DSP. AT least this way you will get one after a while.
| Quote: | Take my character for instance.
I have Control 5D and Alter of 5D and 2D from dsp. With 2D extra I would hit 9D for my Telekinetics. I now have to beat 2D with my 4D in willpower. Not exactly an impossible feat. And when I get 5D in willpower it will be even easier.
Sure, it's not impossible to fail, but are you not setting the bar a tidbit too low? The one thing that would make me hesitate is that one time in six you roll a 1 on the dice and get an extra dice to compete against.
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Precicely.. Too much gain for too little risk.
| Quote: | Even if that is the fact in the end, Im thinking of some kind of cumulative effect where the difficulty number to resist is raised over time. Perhaps it will start as your example above, but the next time you will have to add +1D to the opposed Dark Side roll above you number of bonus dice.
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So initial is Bonus die from dsp as pool against willpower.
2nd time is BD+1d
third is BD+2d
fourth is BD+3d.
Would that be period? Just that game session? Campaign??
| Quote: | | In any case, if you are already using bonus dice from your DSPs, your chance of resisting will be lower. The Dark Side allready have you in its grips, and will not happily give you any freebies. |
How is your chance to resist any less? Your willpower is still the same, and unless you have 3/4 or more dsps, that won't equal most pcs knowledge/willpower..
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
| Quote: | | In any case, if you are already using bonus dice from your DSPs, your chance of resisting will be lower. The Dark Side allready have you in its grips, and will not happily give you any freebies. |
How is your chance to resist any less? Your willpower is still the same, and unless you have 3/4 or more dsps, that won't equal most pcs knowledge/willpower.. |
Well, if you have 2 dsp and use a 3d bonus its 5d to resist... that's not good odds if you risk a new dsp. Even with 7d willpower there is a good chance you will fail. If you also get extra dice from every 1 on the bonus dice it could be a real party.
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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But off course it should be sixes on the bonus dice that are dangerous since you are channeling more of the dark side.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | garhkal wrote: |
| Quote: | | In any case, if you are already using bonus dice from your DSPs, your chance of resisting will be lower. The Dark Side allready have you in its grips, and will not happily give you any freebies. |
How is your chance to resist any less? Your willpower is still the same, and unless you have 3/4 or more dsps, that won't equal most pcs knowledge/willpower.. |
Well, if you have 2 dsp and use a 3d bonus its 5d to resist... that's not good odds if you risk a new dsp. Even with 7d willpower there is a good chance you will fail. If you also get extra dice from every 1 on the bonus dice it could be a real party. |
How can they gain 3d bonus if they only have 2 dark side points?
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
How can they gain 3d bonus if they only have 2 dark side points? |
I admit my post may have been unclear.
Edit: total dice to Alter for my character. 5D skill + 2D dsp + 2D bonus from channeling extra dark side = 9D.
I assume that Zaphod means that each dsp add one dice to the "corruption test". Thus if you use a Force Power with 2D bonus, you will roll willpower against 2D+'dsp'D. With 2 dsp it would be 4D in total. That will give a character with 4D in willpower a 50% chance of failure to resist.
If you on top of that add one dice for every 1 on the bonus dice, rolling three 1 on the bonus dice would make it 7D to resist in the above example.
Off course, if you have no dsp it will be much easier to resist the corruption. If you have no dsp and only channel one extra bonus dice you can never have harder corruption test than 2D. You can off course still fail, but it's not as likely.
even if you only use one extra bonus dice you will eventually fail your willpower roll if you keep using it. And if Zaphod has some evil plan to raise the corruption test for regular users it will be sooner than later. Don't ask me how and when the difficulty would be raised. I have no idea.
I'm not saying I like this way better than the pure "Jury Rig" idea, but I can still see it work. Giving the GM control over the penalty might aslo work to punish abusers
edit: changed some numbers.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:05 am Post subject: |
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This is all getting a little too complicated for me to follow. Random, once you decide what suggestions you intend to incorporate into your original rule, I would greatly appreciate it if you would post an updated version.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | I didnt say the opposed number of dice would be exactly the number of bonus dice..
Even if that is the fact in the end, Im thinking of some kind of cumulative effect where the difficulty number to resist is raised over time. Perhaps it will start as your example above, but the next time you will have to add +1D to the opposed Dark Side roll above you number of bonus dice.
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What Random had posted just before this is too easy for Jedi trained in Willpower. So I like the idea of a cumulative effect.
[quote='garhkal']So initial is Bonus die from dsp as pool against willpower.
2nd time is BD+1d
third is BD+2d
fourth is BD+3d. [/quote]
I think something like this works. Since eventually if will cost a DSP or DSpip. But the cost will be less than calling on the Darks Side.
FWIW, in the Clone Wars cartoon Anakin often seems angry when he fights. Maybe he is picking up +2D here +2D there in Dark Side bonus dice.  I think it also works for something like Vaapad which Mace Windu uses to harness his anger and seems to be skirting the Dark Side.
To explain why it does not automatically give a DSP, I would look at this as fighting passionately. Most probably use anger when they fight, but for others it could be different passions (loyalty, love of family, patriotism). This would also reinforce why the Jedi in the prequels eschew attachments since they could be used to fuel this bonus dice potentially resulting in a tiny slip (or DSpip) to the Dark Side.
Thoughts? |
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
FWIW, in the Clone Wars cartoon Anakin often seems angry when he fights. Maybe he is picking up +2D here +2D there in Dark Side bonus dice. I think it also works for something like Vaapad which Mace Windu uses to harness his anger and seems to be skirting the Dark Side.
To explain why it does not automatically give a DSP, I would look at this as fighting passionately. Most probably use anger when they fight, but for others it could be different passions (loyalty, love of family, patriotism). This would also reinforce why the Jedi in the prequels eschew attachments since they could be used to fuel this bonus dice potentially resulting in a tiny slip (or DSpip) to the Dark Side.
Thoughts? |
Could be a plausible explanation for the mechanic. I personally don't think the cumulative effect should be too steep.
We will see what happens tomorrow, if we even get in the situation when one of us will feel it's necessary to use it. It will be interesting.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | garhkal wrote: |
How can they gain 3d bonus if they only have 2 dark side points? |
I admit my post may have been unclear.
Edit: total dice to Alter for my character. 5D skill + 2D dsp + 2D bonus from channeling extra dark side = 9D.
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So they can gain 2d per dsp, not just 1?
| Quote: | | Could be a plausible explanation for the mechanic. I personally don't think the cumulative effect should be too steep. |
What should IYO be an upper limit?
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | This is all getting a little too complicated for me to follow. Random, once you decide what suggestions you intend to incorporate into your original rule, I would greatly appreciate it if you would post an updated version. |
In general, if a mechanic isnt simple it wont be used.
It looks like a simple opposed WP test vs the DS, which is a number of dice equal to the number of diced drawn from the DS will be the basic mechanic.
The Dark Sides opposed test is modified as follows:
-For each '1' rolled on the bonus dice when using the Force Skill add +1D to the DS number of dice.
-Second time you draw upon the DS add +1D, third time add +2D.
Havent figured out how existing DSPs will affect this mechanic yet.
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | garhkal wrote: |
How can they gain 3d bonus if they only have 2 dark side points? |
I admit my post may have been unclear.
Edit: total dice to Alter for my character. 5D skill + 2D dsp + 2D bonus from channeling extra dark side = 9D.
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So they can gain 2d per dsp, not just 1?
| Quote: | | Could be a plausible explanation for the mechanic. I personally don't think the cumulative effect should be too steep. |
What should IYO be an upper limit? |
Without this new mechanic we are discussing the following apply in our game. For each dsp you get a +1D bonus to your Force Skills. You can opt not to use the bonus but will then get a penalty to the Force Skills by the same amount.
About the new mechanic. No I don't think there should be an upper limit to the cumulative effect. I just don't think it should be +1D per use. The bonus isn't that good compared to what you stand to lose if you receive a dsp from a few (1-3) extra dice to a single roll.
We just finished our session and no one felt particular needy to press Zaphod on the new mechanic since we feel we are already on the something, something, something, Dark Side. Although we had a few hairy moments with a Lightsaber toting Sith knight.
On the eastern front, nothing new....
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't it be easier to just figure these extra dice like bonus Character Points that have to be used in the round they are earned, but the more you try to use, the more likely you are to pick up a DSP in the process?
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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