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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | IMO where this rule is going to be most useful is at the middle levels, especially in starship combat where scaling comes into play. A begging "Brash Pilot" PC with a 4D MEC, 6D Starfighiter Piloting, 7D in Starfighter Piloting*X-Wing, , in said X-Wing (Maneuverability 3D) attacking a capital ship (6D Scaling difference) is going to be rolling up to 16D for a dodge. That's not high level, but it is a lot of dice. For a full group, MAPS, and so on. it starts to slow things down a bit. |
We typically offset opposing maneuverability and fire control codes to reduce the total number of dice: e.g X-wing with 3D manuever being shot at by a TIE fighter with 2D fire control. TIE rolls to hit without fire control add, X-wing rolls defense with +1D net for manuever.
Adding a force point on a good skill also tends to result in the lots o' dice effect. It is especially bad with knight level Jedi.
In a situation (x-wing dodging cap ship) such as atgxtg describes if I wanted to speed up play, I'd just rule the pilot succeeded without a roll. If I wanted the potential for a bad result, I'd just have the pilot roll the wild die to see if there is a complication. Then I might see if I could find a way to increase the odds against the pilot so the roll is interesting or cut to the actions of some other character who has a chance to fail. Nothing says you have to roll out everything.
That being said, I don't find it very difficult to add numbers. Even adding a lot of dice is not too time consuming. Getting the PC to roll any number of dice often takes longer.  And I do like the sound of lots of dice. 8) |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I think I could get on board with that. The only thing I would change is that I wouldn't want to go too far overboard with the set value thing. When you are rolling a combined 15D for Sense and Lightsaber, rolling 5D+35 would seem to take a lot of the randomness out of the roll. At the very least, Wild Dice would have to be strictly enforced. |
Plus you do away with those 'tense' moments where someone with a large die pool can roll real poorly so someone with the small one can over come them... A heck of a lot harder to see done with a smaller d pool and lots of bonuses added in instead..
| Quote: | We typically offset opposing maneuverability and fire control codes to reduce the total number of dice: e.g X-wing with 3D manuever being shot at by a TIE fighter with 2D fire control. TIE rolls to hit without fire control add, X-wing rolls defense with +1D net for manuever.
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I do that too. I give the pcs the choice of going RAW for scaling dice, OR i can just take x dice out of the enemy's too hit pool (cap to sf usually)...
Most actually prefer my method.
| Quote: | dding a force point on a good skill also tends to result in the lots o' dice effect. It is especially bad with knight level Jedi.
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One suggestion i have seen for this, is roll as normal, but DOUBLE the result... EG 4d+2 soak, and he is trying to survive a TD explosion, he rolls 4d+2 x2 instead of 8d+4..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I think I could get on board with that. The only thing I would change is that I wouldn't want to go too far overboard with the set value thing. When you are rolling a combined 15D for Sense and Lightsaber, rolling 5D+35 would seem to take a lot of the randomness out of the roll. At the very least, Wild Dice would have to be strictly enforced. |
Yeah. That is the trade off with any method that reduces the number of dice rolled. The same wouldhold true with the half die plus add system.For instance 12D becomming 6D+21 isn't that much more random than 5D+24.
Some of my players came from D20/SW and one thing that surprised them was how random things can be in D6. In D20, a droid with Astrogation +15 can reliably make DC10 and 15 rolls. In D6, a droid with Astrogation 5D can flub Easy and Moderate tasks.
You could either just accept it, or...
Alter the effects of the wild die so that it halves the add. For instance 5D+15 could be reduced to 5D+7. Since one o the 5D is a 1, we are left with 4D+7, Chaos has returned. If you really ant to allow for the big flubs,allow the wild die to cacnel out the enitre add. Then the character is left with the 4D roll. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
We typically offset opposing maneuverability and fire control codes to reduce the total number of dice: e.g X-wing with 3D manuever being shot at by a TIE fighter with 2D fire control. TIE rolls to hit without fire control add, X-wing rolls defense with +1D net for manuever. |
I've een thinking of doing something like that for a few things. Armor for one.
c
Adding a force point on a good skill also tends to result in the lots o' dice effect. It is especially bad with knight level Jedi. [/quote]
Yes. Although since MAPs now apply first, I7ve found this to be much less of a issue than in the past. Lightsaber Combat is less the monster than it used to be.
I was thinking of doing what they do in the Bond RPG and letting the ponts adjust the success level directly, rather than adding more dice. It would make Force points both more powerful (spending one guantees a success) and less (spending a FP doesn't make multiactions any easier this way).
| Bren wrote: |
In a situation (x-wing dodging cap ship) such as atgxtg describes if I wanted to speed up play, I'd just rule the pilot succeeded without a roll. If I wanted the potential for a bad result, I'd just have the pilot roll the wild die to see if there is a complication. Then I might see if I could find a way to increase the odds against the pilot so the roll is interesting or cut to the actions of some other character who has a chance to fail. Nothing says you have to roll out everything. |
I think what I would like to do is have the captial ship set a dificulty and thenm have the results/number of times the X-Wing is hit be based on how well he pilot rols. Maybe the pilot could become so busy dodging that he looses other actions or something.
I7m even tempted to replace the die rolls with ixed difficulties and have ONLY the PCs roll.
| Bren wrote: |
That being said, I don't find it very difficult to add numbers. Even adding a lot of dice is not too time consuming. Getting the PC to roll any number of dice often takes longer. And I do like the sound of lots of dice. 8) |
I've been finding it slows things down. It doesn't help that one of my players is running a clone trooper and y the it takes him time to work out his his MAPs, armor penality, fire control, etc, for any action. He also seems to have some sort of compulsion to work out the total roll, even when the actual result ins't necessary. A typical example:
GM: There are 7 battle droids. They are 12 meters away, but the cave is a little dark, so you need a 7 to hit them with your DC-15 carbine.
[c(rolls dice, starts adding), 4...8...
GM: You hit.
Player: ...12...
GM: Still hit.You can stop counting now.
Player: ...19...22...
GM: Oh, yeah you sooo hit.
Player: ...27..
GM: Hit. Just roll damage.
Player: 31...
GM: Hit.
Player: 35...37!
GM: Great, you hit. Can we see if you blow it to bits now?
Player: No, wait I got +2 more for a 39!
GM: 39? Oh, well that misses! C'mon roll damage. Count Dooku's got plans for dinner.
(Player and Gmnow roll dice)
GM: Ouch a 1 on thewild die. They just don't make 'em like they used to.
Player: 5...8....16...
GM: You blast a hole through it's chest and it drops.
Player: ...22...26...
GM: It's dead. You can stop counting.
Player: 29...31...34..46...
GM: Toast, non unctional, FUBAR
Player: No, wait! I forgot to add the +1 for the blaster.
GM: It's still dead. |
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | A typical example:
GM: There are 7 battle droids. They are 12 meters away, but the cave is a little dark, so you need a 7 to hit them with your DC-15 carbine.
[c(rolls dice, starts adding), 4...8...
GM: You hit.
Player: ...12...
GM: Still hit.You can stop counting now.
Player: ...19...22...
GM: Oh, yeah you sooo hit.
Player: ...27..
GM: Hit. Just roll damage.
Player: 31...
GM: Hit.
Player: 35...37!
GM: Great, you hit. Can we see if you blow it to bits now?
Player: No, wait I got +2 more for a 39!
GM: 39? Oh, well that misses! C'mon roll damage. Count Dooku's got plans for dinner.
(Player and Gmnow roll dice)
GM: Ouch a 1 on thewild die. They just don't make 'em like they used to.
Player: 5...8....16...
GM: You blast a hole through it's chest and it drops.
Player: ...22...26...
GM: It's dead. You can stop counting.
Player: 29...31...34..46...
GM: Toast, non unctional, FUBAR
Player: No, wait! I forgot to add the +1 for the blaster.
GM: It's still dead. |
I have a fellow player playing in another game system that does this... he's a total powergamer, and it's annoying every time he does it.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Yes. Although since MAPs now apply first, I7ve found this to be much less of a issue than in the past. Lightsaber Combat is less the monster than it used to be.. |
Is that a house rule or some obscure erata to the rules??
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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No I think it's standard. In the trench run example of Luke using Concentration and a Force Point to nail the Death Star the MAPs come off first then the concentration bonus is added and then the dice pools are doubled.
I think MAPs happen before everything else is considered.
We discussed it in the favourite Jedi takedown thread.
| garhkal wrote: | | and iirc of maps they come after multiplying for force points, not before. |
| Esoomian wrote: | | Nope check the Death Star trench run example on R&E p. 143 The MAPs come out before the multiplier takes effect so the Dark Sider in question would still need to have an alter of 9D (with TK as the 6th action) before they've got a decent chance of succeeding. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Interesting since every other book i have read, seems to show they come after.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Yes. Although since MAPs now apply first, I7ve found this to be much less of a issue than in the past. Lightsaber Combat is less the monster than it used to be.. |
Is that a house rule or some obscure erata to the rules?? |
No, it is on 2R&E. Look at the example of Luke using Concentration. The MAPS come off first.
Of coruse, i Luke did use Concentration this way, he'd have crashed into the Death Star for failure to pilot his X-Wing, but that's another matter.
Taking the MAPS off first REALLY tones down Force Points. PCs can't just spend an FP and make a half dozen attacks and put up a defense like before. Not unless they are really good. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: |
I have a fellow player playing in another game system that does this... he's a total powergamer, and it's annoying every time he does it. |
My player isn't a total powergamer. He does powergame a litle, but he does roleplay and do other things. This is just some werd quirk. I7d be inclined to say "obessive complusive disorder". Reminds me of vampires that have to stop and count each grain of rice.
Every one is awhile I tell him he missed because he took to long to add up the dice, and the bad guys moved while he was counting, but no luck.He just seems to feel like something is WRONG if he doesn't get a total. He even does it when I tel him that a damage roll isn't necessary (like when he shot a Battle Droid with the main cannon of an AAT).
The man has been like that since I first met him. n D&D he has to total up his bonuses on every die roll. He seems incabalbe of totaling up his BAB, STR mod, feat bonuses, and item bonuses in advance.
It just gets irksome when he makes us waste ten minutes yo confirm that he did indeed blow apart a B1 battledroid with a burst from an E-Web. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Reminds me of vampires that have to stop and count each grain of rice. |
Yeah. Yeah. Does he only fly Quantas? Is the People's Court his favorite TV show?  |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | This is just some werd quirk. I7d be inclined to say "obessive complusive disorder".
Every one is awhile I tell him he missed because he took to long to add up the dice, and the bad guys moved while he was counting, but no luck |
Yup.. Sounds like he is heavily OCD..
How did he react to that 'you miss cause the badde steps away while you waste time counting?
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Yeah. Yeah. Does he only fly Quantas? Is the People's Court his favorite TV show? |
No. He is a bright guy. I think it is either OCD, or just because in real life he is an engineer and is probably expected to come up with a "hard number" answer to a problem.
Now I just switch to another player and ask the guy to let me know when he is finished, and ready to roll damage.
| garhkall wrote: |
Yup.. Sounds like he is heavily OCD.. |
He is only that way when doing die totals, though. It not like he has to rearrange the M&M's in the snack tray or some such.
| garhkall wrote: |
How did he react to that 'you miss cause the badde steps away while you waste time counting? |
The first time, he was nonplussed for a second or two, the realized that I was messing with him. After that he takes it for what it is, and he does tryto get better at it.
But I have something of a rep for sarcastic remarks at the gaming table. Usually because most of the local players are idiots, and it gets hard to watch them make the same dumb mistakes week after week without making a comment. And when the group is dropping like flies, any comment seems sarcastic.
But, overall the guy is a good gamer. It is just a quirk, but one that is especially annoying in D6. In fact, since I cutaway the deadwood, my Star Wars group has been consistently exceeding my expectations. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: |
Yeah. Yeah. Does he only fly Quantas? Is the People's Court his favorite TV show? |
No. He is a bright guy. |
I meant it as a joke. It sounds like it's just a quirk. I've known a few players like that. While it is frustrating when you are ready to just move along, your solution of moving to someone else may be the best one.
One other thing I might be tempted to do would be if he hits and clearly rolls well over what's necessary, I'd say something like - "OK your blaster shot hits him in the neck bypassing the armor and killing the stormtrooper." Then if he countinues counting to get the final total, I might say, "well since you rolled all the dice out, go ahead and roll the damage" hoping that he doesn't roll enough damage to kill the stormtrooper this time. The object being to try to get the point across that it's better not to argue with the judge when you are already winning the lawsuit or to frustrate the GM when you are already succeeding at the task at hand.
| Quote: | | But, overall the guy is a good gamer. It is just a quirk, but one that is especially annoying in D6. In fact, since I cutaway the deadwood, my Star Wars group has been consistently exceeding my expectations. |
This reminds me of a conversation from many years ago about how many players a GM could handle and a notion that some players have a number of 1, some players are a pain and count as 1.5, 2, or even 3, and a few really great players have a number of zero or even -1 or -2. Sounds like you got rid of the high number folks in your group. 8) |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He is only that way when doing die totals, though. It not like he has to rearrange the M&M's in the snack tray or some such. |
I have worked with several OCD people... 3 were 'dice countig' 1 was a need freak and 2 were step counters..
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