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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | For someone to come up with something, they have to be thinking about it.. That you did all the thinking, then pushed that idea on to them, is almost akin to a pc on his own having a great idea cause 2 other players back in the main group told him what it is.. and neither have comlinks to talk back and fourth on. |
I find this confusing with pronouns. Let's try putting in names.
Bob, Chris, and Gary are the three players. Their PCs are Lt. Brandt, Chewlummpa, and Gornar. Lt. Brandt has a 5D tactical and is the unit CO having years of experience first in the Imperial military and then with the Rebellion, but Bob the player only has a fair grasp (at best), of tactics. Chris, in real life, is ex-military and Gary plays war games, but no real life military experience.
Lt. Brandt get's separated from the other members of his team. He is struggling to come up with a tactical plan of action on his own. The other two players, Chris and Gary, speculate on some possible plans, Bob says I like plan B, the GM has Bob roll Lt. Brandt's tactics getting a 21 (he rolled a six on the wild die). Lt. Brandt then executes the plan he came up with (in the game due to the die roll) with the metagame assistance of the other two players?
Are you saying you have a problem with this?
Second example: Bob rolls the 21 before Chris and Gary help him brainstorm his plan and the GM says "Lt. Brandt made a very difficult tactics roll, why don't you two help Bob come up with a plan?"
Would you have a problem with that? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ...A normal person would have a Difficulty of Very Difficult or Heroic to perform the act, but the Difficulty would be lower for characters who either already had DSPs or had experienced some sort of horrible trauma, such as some combat veterans. Thoughts? |
That seems psychologically sound. But are player characters really normal?
For example, I've always assumed my brash young Jedi (and his closest friends) are all adreneline junkies. It's one of the ways I understand and explain their behavior and continued activity. Similarly, a lot of PCs (mine and those I GM) in Star Wars (and other games) are probably at least 2 standard deviations away from the norm on one or more measures. And nearly all of our Call of Cthulhu characters are at least a bit odd, shall we say.  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | That seems psychologically sound. But are player characters really normal? |
Depends on the character, I suppose. Just looking at the templates in the 2R&E book, I would guess that most of them have some sort of combat experience that separates them from the average civilian population (except maybe the Kid and the Protocol Droid), but some obviously have more than others. Characters like the Bounty Hunter or the Pirate would be far more likely to have "seen the elephant" than, say, the Arrogant Noble or the Young Senatorial.
| Quote: | | For example, I've always assumed my brash young Jedi (and his closest friends) are all adreneline junkies. It's one of the ways I understand and explain their behavior and continued activity. Similarly, a lot of PCs (mine and those I GM) in Star Wars (and other games) are probably at least 2 standard deviations away from the norm on one or more measures. And nearly all of our Call of Cthulhu characters are at least a bit odd, shall we say. |
I don't necessarily see adrenaline junkies being the same thing. This is more along the lines of someone whose life experiences (such as being the victim of abuse or being a combat veteran) has shaped them so that they are more able to act violently on instinct, even if they regret it later.
Also, I would've thought that being odd in a Call of Cthulu campaign was mandatory.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | For someone to come up with something, they have to be thinking about it.. That you did all the thinking, then pushed that idea on to them, is almost akin to a pc on his own having a great idea cause 2 other players back in the main group told him what it is.. and neither have comlinks to talk back and fourth on. |
I find this confusing with pronouns. Let's try putting in names.
Bob, Chris, and Gary are the three players. Their PCs are Lt. Brandt, Chewlummpa, and Gornar. Lt. Brandt has a 5D tactical and is the unit CO having years of experience first in the Imperial military and then with the Rebellion, but Bob the player only has a fair grasp (at best), of tactics. Chris, in real life, is ex-military and Gary plays war games, but no real life military experience.
Lt. Brandt get's separated from the other members of his team. He is struggling to come up with a tactical plan of action on his own. The other two players, Chris and Gary, speculate on some possible plans, Bob says I like plan B, the GM has Bob roll Lt. Brandt's tactics getting a 21 (he rolled a six on the wild die). Lt. Brandt then executes the plan he came up with (in the game due to the die roll) with the metagame assistance of the other two players?
Are you saying you have a problem with this?
Second example: Bob rolls the 21 before Chris and Gary help him brainstorm his plan and the GM says "Lt. Brandt made a very difficult tactics roll, why don't you two help Bob come up with a plan?"
Would you have a problem with that? |
My guess would be that it all comes down to what kind of group and campaign you are running. Are your games the World CHampionships or a friendly game of checkers?
For the friendly game of checkers, the talk around the table amongst the players might not be too bad. From game advancing and social aspect. Then it's simply up to the GM to allow the strategy.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | I dont want to have mechanics force the characters actions as long as the character has stayed on the narrow path. As soon as you have DSP, Im all for a mechanic (and actually have one myself). I focus on fun-ness over imagined 'realism'. How about having people check their Willpower to see wether they fall in love? Thats another reaction you usually do not have control over. Again, not my idea of fun.
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And Pendragon has a mechanic for that too! But it also allows the player to have their character improve things that allow them to overcome or control those roles. And it allows an alert player to avoid a dice roll that would really offend their character. |
Why even bother?
Let the player play his character as he/she wants. At least in my group we play to have fun, not to frantically come up with a zillion mechanics to simulate everything that can happen to a character. If that would have been our cup of tea, we wouldnt be playing SW D6 but Space Master or D20 Space (or whatever its called).
Some RPGs with particular themes might have some mechanics that force characters actions. These often comes from specific (and often supernatural) sources. They are often 'staples' of their particular genres and closely tied to the theme of the RPG. The most common is Fear/Terror in games related to Horror/Fantasy but Magic is also a common mechanic in Fantasy games. In SW we have the Force. Actually I introduced the Will of the Dark Side in my games to make the Dark Side more scary and its path more dangerous. 'Anger' I really feel is in the realm of RP:ing, especially if you take the Dark Side as seriously as I am in my games. Of course, if youre all for 'atoning' with 5 or 6 CPs than forcing a DPS on a player isnt such a big deal.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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I lost track of your Will of the Dark Side mechanic. How exactly does it work again?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I lost track of your Will of the Dark Side mechanic. How exactly does it work again? |
The Will of the Dark Side (WDS) is equal in numbers of D:s to your number of DSPs. 5 DSP:s = WDS 5D, 1 DSP = WDS 1D.
When the Dark Side tries to force the characters hand (ie he gives in to the influence of the DS) he tries to resist with an opposed roll using either his Willpower or his Control skill. If he uses his Control skille he suffers a penalty in numbers of D equal to his DSPs. This simulates the rule of not using the DSP bonus when using Force Skills as the Dark Side influences the characters force use. If the WDS wins, the character is temporarily under the control of the Dark Side, otherwise the character manage to veer away from disaster. The control is usually briefly, at a critical moment when the character is at a critical decision (its easier, but wrong, to quickly kill all in the room who might otherwise sound the alarm. What should I do).
The WDS normally triggers at these critical points of decision but also by player (to differ from character) behaviour. A player saying in frustration 'Ill kill him' even if speaking OOC might trigger a test. If this seems strange its a tradition in our gaming group.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen stranger. The After-Midnight Rule is a classic.
Do you have a mechanic for determining how a person with no Dark Side Points earns their first one, or is it entirely up to the player?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Lt. Brandt get's separated from the other members of his team. He is struggling to come up with a tactical plan of action on his own. The other two players, Chris and Gary, speculate on some possible plans, Bob says I like plan B, the GM has Bob roll Lt. Brandt's tactics getting a 21 (he rolled a six on the wild die). Lt. Brandt then executes the plan he came up with (in the game due to the die roll) with the metagame assistance of the other two players?
Are you saying you have a problem with this?
Second example: Bob rolls the 21 before Chris and Gary help him brainstorm his plan and the GM says "Lt. Brandt made a very difficult tactics roll, why don't you two help Bob come up with a plan?"
Would you have a problem with that? |
Yes for both... I don't really like Metagaming period, even when there is "Potential justification" like the one above having it.
As to him thinking it up (by the dice roll) but the others actually come up with it, i know people IRL who are great coming up with stuff when working together, but are hard pressed to do so when on their own...
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | I've seen stranger. The After-Midnight Rule is a classic.
Do you have a mechanic for determining how a person with no Dark Side Points earns their first one, or is it entirely up to the player? |
Yes, as mentioned earlier.
The player controls his actions completely up to the first DSP (and 1 or 2 DSPs will mostly influence you if the Wild Die is against you). However I never warn players that a certain action will earn them a DSP. Its the characters job to know, and the player job to try to find out (ie Jedi Lore test).
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | I've seen stranger. The After-Midnight Rule is a classic.
Do you have a mechanic for determining how a person with no Dark Side Points earns their first one, or is it entirely up to the player? |
Yes, as mentioned earlier.
The player controls his actions completely up to the first DSP (and 1 or 2 DSPs will mostly influence you if the Wild Die is against you). However I never warn players that a certain action will earn them a DSP. Its the characters job to know, and the player job to try to find out (ie Jedi Lore test). |
Do you have a rule distinction between Force Sensitives and non-Force Sensitives, or is everyone at equal risk?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | I've seen stranger. The After-Midnight Rule is a classic.
Do you have a mechanic for determining how a person with no Dark Side Points earns their first one, or is it entirely up to the player? |
Yes, as mentioned earlier.
The player controls his actions completely up to the first DSP (and 1 or 2 DSPs will mostly influence you if the Wild Die is against you). However I never warn players that a certain action will earn them a DSP. Its the characters job to know, and the player job to try to find out (ie Jedi Lore test). |
Do you have a rule distinction between Force Sensitives and non-Force Sensitives, or is everyone at equal risk? |
The mechanic is the same. The difference is that for non-force sensitives the WDS is only equal to half the number or DSP:s, rounded down.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:42 am Post subject: |
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So a NFS with 4dsps only has a "WODS of 2d"... kind of easy to resist that with most common templates base Knowledge (2d+2)..
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | My guess would be that it all comes down to what kind of group and campaign you are running. Are your games the World CHampionships or a friendly game of checkers? |
Good point Random.  We sometimes end up talking at cross purposes due to just that difference.
And if my players were interested in Grand Master level chess play, they'd probably be doing that instead of RPGing.
Last edited by Bren on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | I dont want to have mechanics force the characters actions as long as the character has stayed on the narrow path. As soon as you have DSP, Im all for a mechanic (and actually have one myself). I focus on fun-ness over imagined 'realism'. How about having people check their Willpower to see wether they fall in love? Thats another reaction you usually do not have control over. Again, not my idea of fun.
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And Pendragon has a mechanic for that too! But it also allows the player to have their character improve things that allow them to overcome or control those roles. And it allows an alert player to avoid a dice roll that would really offend their character. |
Why even bother?
Let the player play his character as he/she wants. At least in my group we play to have fun... |
As I said prior to this, I don't bother in Star Wars. I was merely pointing out that if one wants to take decisions out of the players hands there is an efficient and tested method of doing that and it covers a full range of behaviors and emotions.
I agree with you that different mechanics make sense in different genres and in Star Wars I am comfortable having players make decisions. And like you, I also don't see a need to warn any but the rankest amateur or novice player about DSP actions. I prefer to hint at what I think the PC might be feeling but let the player decide what the PC does. If the PC has 1 or more DSPs then I will provide hints (or even situations) where the easy solution will result in another DSP.  |
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