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garhkal
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 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:09 am Post subject: Dark side point attonement. |
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Brought out of MANY threads we seem to be having recently on the force, dark side etc.
How easy do you make it to attone for dark side point? Is it harder if say you gained a DSP for doing the same thing you already attoned for once before?
Would you ever "regive" back the attoned for DSP if someone willingly did the same act?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Dark side point attonement. |
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| garhkal wrote: | Brought out of MANY threads we seem to be having recently on the force, dark side etc.
How easy do you make it to attone for dark side point? Is it harder if say you gained a DSP for doing the same thing you already attoned for once before?
Would you ever "regive" back the attoned for DSP if someone willingly did the same act? |
That's my primary issue with the way the RAW is worded: too much is left up to the imagination of the GM and the players, which is practically inviting inaccuracy.
IMO, a character with DSPs who has not yet turned to the Dark Side is emotionally tormented and personally conflicted. The evil acts that he takes are a result of confusion and loss of emotional control in the moment rather than premeditated acts. These are acts of passion or terror. Only once the character has truly fallen to darkness do these acts become those of sadism or callous indifference.
I just know Bren is going to disagree with me on this, but I still feel that this is an aspect of the player that should, at the very least, be directed in some fashion by a roll of the dice, as opposed to the player dictating the character's emotional state and responses.
Back on topic, a character receiving a DSP for a nearly identical act should be decided by the situation, but I think an improved penalty is appropriate. After all, the character has been here before and has seen what the results will be. Whether he is atoning or still struggling, if he commits the same act again, IMO, it was either because he chose it, or because he was weak. In his mind, his weakness and failure will be accompanied by a sense of defeat and inevitability. Neither emotion may be accurate, but the human mind is frail in that fashion.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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In our gaming group where we do starwas at conventions (sparks force 7), we have it that when you get a DSP, it takes 3 modules of you adventuring with "telling the DM you are trying to attone' to get rid of the 1st dsp you have had.
IF any of those 3 gms feel your 'acts' during his (or her) running of a module, were NOT those of someone attoning you start again.
Each additional DSP earned makes it 1 module/gaming session harder, even if you already attoned for prior ones.
So
1dsp ever earned = 3 gaming sessions/modules
2dsps ever earned = 4 sessions
3 dsps ever earned = 5
and so on...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | In our gaming group where we do starwas at conventions (sparks force 7), we have it that when you get a DSP, it takes 3 modules of you adventuring with "telling the DM you are trying to attone' to get rid of the 1st dsp you have had.
IF any of those 3 gms feel your 'acts' during his (or her) running of a module, were NOT those of someone attoning you start again.
Each additional DSP earned makes it 1 module/gaming session harder, even if you already attoned for prior ones.
So
1dsp ever earned = 3 gaming sessions/modules
2dsps ever earned = 4 sessions
3 dsps ever earned = 5
and so on... |
I like that. It definitely brings new life to Yoda's "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." That would mean characters would have to keep track of their lifetime DSP count, and screwing up could mean they are in Time Out until the end of time.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Precisely. That is why it went to that. Too many players were seen as getting that 1 'free' dark side point, or even 2. then attoning for them (3 or 6 modules worth of time), then later going out getting another dsp. atoning. Getting another,.....and so on with just the 3 session/module time going by. I can't remember who it was that suggested it be harsher to atone after the first time, but the council talked it over a few years back and adopted the new rule i posted above...
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Dark side point attonement. |
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| garhkal wrote: | How easy do you make it to attone for dark side point? Is it harder if say you gained a DSP for doing the same thing you already attoned for once before?
Would you ever "regive" back the attoned for DSP if someone willingly did the same act? |
Not very easy.
To attone for 1 DSP my young Jedi had a five part adventure ~ 60 hours of play or so resulting in 25 pages of typed player notes. After receiving the DSP he was pretty tramautized, became prone to emotional angry outbursts including making intimidation rolls against those "in his way," and decided he was unfit to be a Jedi. He felt his unstable emotional state and his sense of satisfaction at killing his opponenet "I killed him, and I liked it" made him a threat to his friends and loved ones, so he ran away from them, to keep them safe and because he felt he was not fit to be with them. This triggered a five part mini-campaign.
The first four episodes were him struggling to answer the fundamental question can he be a Jedi if he is not perfect? He spoke with a series of significant NPCs that he had helped or who had shaped who he was including speaking to a force vision of his mother where he learned:
"Every child must learn from his mistakes, my son. Being a Jedi doesn’t make you perfect. What matters is how you face what you have done and what you will do after. Choosing the Dark Side is easy. The way of the Light is much more difficult. With the Light you must choose again and again. (Pauses.) What will you choose, my son?"
This ideas of choice and that the Light requires you to choose again and again became the central and defining way that the character understands himself and his role as a Jedi.
There were a number of other issues that required resolution including his duty and responsibility as a Jedi and how he handles risks to friends and loved ones before he had finished his atonement and was ready to return to the path of the Jedi. The final fifth episode required him to face and defeat a Dark Side opponent while blind. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Dark side point attonement. |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Would you ever "regive" back the attoned for DSP if someone willingly did the same act? |
No.
I do find the idea of making attonement more difficult or lengthy for repeated offenses interesting. But I think it would depend.1) A Jedi with a bit of a temper or an anger managment problem is dramatically interesting and understandable. I'm not certain I want to overly discourage that.
2) A Jedi who first has an anger problem, then a greed problem, then a fear problem, then an arrogance problem starts to seem either multi-personalitied or just really, really messed up. But he isn't repeating the same old sins, he is just finding new ones. Is it better to penalize Jedi #1 more for a repeated offence than Jedi #2 who keeps finding new paths to the Dark Side? I'm not sure I see that. I guess where it makes sense to do that is if it seems like the PC doesn't seem to gain behavior changing insights from the experience and if the player seems to just be gaming the system.
I do like the idea of making atonement harder for each DSP that was gained, no matter for what offence. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Dark side point attonement. |
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| crmcneill wrote: | I just know Bren is going to disagree with me on this...
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Natch 
I actually like the willpower roll for some things, what I don't like is the GM imposing it on the player.
I see it like this.
Scene #1
Player: My character is angry at the villain. He's not taking prisoners. I charge into his chamber and say, "Darth Serious, you killed my father, prepare to die!" I'm using a Force point this round. I roll 57 for my attack and 53 points of damage.
GM: Darth Serious stumbles from his bed, only half awake as you cut him in two with your lightsaber.
Player: Alright. Take that.
GM: You get a DSP.
Player: A DSP? Really?
GM: Well you cut him down, by surprise, while unarmed, and didn't even give him a chance to surrender.
Player: Oh, yeah. But it sounded cool right?
GM: Yes it did, but you still get a DSP.
Player: D*mn! Well, OK.
Scene #2
Player: I think my character might be angry at that villain. I don't know that he is looking to take prisoners. But I really don't want a DSP. I wonder if he can keep his anger in check. How about I roll willpower?
GM: Sounds good. <play out>
Scene #3A
Player: I think my character might be angry at that villain. I don't know that he is looking to take prisoners. But I really don't want a DSP.
GM: Why don't you roll your willpower?
Player: OK. <play out>
Scene #3B
Player: I think my character might be angry at that villain. I don't know that he is looking to take prisoners. But I really don't want a DSP.
GM: Why don't you roll your willpower?
Player: You know, my Jedi remembers form <scenario in the past> that anger is the path to the Dark Side. He really wants to follow the Jedi code like Master MyTeacher taught him. He's going to take a moment to center himself and recite the Jedi oath until he is calm again.
GM: OK. You are calm now. <play out>
or
GM: Make a willpower or control roll, your choice.
Player: I'm going to take a round to use concentration and I'll spend a CP if necessary.
GM: (D*mn all clever, cautious players!) OK. You make the roll. <play out>
Scene #4A
Player: My character is angry, but he knows that as a Jedi he can't just kill the victim. I want to take a moment to get my emotions under control. I remind myself of the Jedi mantra..."There is not emotion, only peace."
GM: OK, make a willpower or a control roll. <OK to good roll, PC gets his anger under control; failure PC does not get anger under control essentially defaults to #3A.>
Scene #4B (slight variation)
Player: Before we go into the room, I'm taking a moment to calm myself. Once I'm calm, I will proceed into Darth Serious's chamber.
GM: OK, you enter. <Play out player is in control of PC's actions.>
We've played out versions of all of these. We've even had a player in Scene 3A make the willpower roll and over rule a favorable dice roll because he thought his character would be angry despite what the dice said.
Here's what I want to avoid:
Scene #5
Player: My character is angry, but he knows that as a Jedi he can't just kill the victim. And he has learned in the past that anger is the path to the Dark Side. I want to take a moment to get my emotions under control. I remind myself of the Jedi mantra..."There is no emotion, only peace." Once I am calm I enter the chamber.
GM: You see Darth Serious. You remember he killed your father. You are very angry. You have to make a willpower roll.
Player: Hey! My Jedi knows anger is the path to the Dark Side and he specifically wanted to recite the Jedi Oath and wait until he was calm before entering the room.
GM: Doesn't matter. Just because you can be calm it doesn't mean your PC can. You need to make a willpower roll.
Player: <sarcastically> Fine. I roll 22.
GM: It was very difficult. You fail. You are so angry you draw your light saber and attack Darth Serious. <play out combat where player uses a FP and Darth Serious dies>
GM: You acted in anger, you get a DSP.
Player: Wow. That was sure fun.
That's what I want to avoid. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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What do you guys do when sessions cover a very long stretch of time?
Some of our sessions have ended up covering several weeks even a month of actual in game time and some sessions only cover a few hours of in game time. Do both types of session still only count as one session for DSP redemption?
I have to agree with Bren on the player's control on how they get a DSP although I might roll to see how long a player has to stand outside to calm down and if it takes too long then he's likely to (at the very least) lose the element of surprise.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | What do you guys do when sessions cover a very long stretch of time?
Some of oour sessions have ended up covering several weeks even a month of actual in game time and some sessions only cover a few hours of in game time. Do both types of session still only count as one session for DSP redemption?
I have to agree with Bren on the player's control on how they get a DSP although I might roll to see how long a player has to stand outside to calm down and if it takes too long then he's likely to (at the very least) lose the element of surprise. |
In general atonement in my games go by the speed of plot.
When I feel the player has showed enough sincerity and sticking to the narrow path for a sufficient period of time, they get to remove a DSP.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Dark side point attonement. |
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You are exaggerating my intended point.
| Bren wrote: | Here's what I want to avoid:
Scene #5
Player: My character is angry, but he knows that as a Jedi he can't just kill the victim. And he has learned in the past that anger is the path to the Dark Side. I want to take a moment to get my emotions under control. I remind myself of the Jedi mantra..."There is no emotion, only peace." Once I am calm I enter the chamber.
GM: You see Darth Serious. You remember he killed your father. You are very angry. You have to make a willpower roll.
Player: Hey! My Jedi knows anger is the path to the Dark Side and he specifically wanted to recite the Jedi Oath and wait until he was calm before entering the room. |
GM: Yes, but that is an expression of Willpower, which I told you two months ago was going to start coming into play with this new rule. You've had four chances to put dice in Willpower and you've put it all in Lightsaber. You may say that your character knows that, but that's just you talking. If your character knew that, it would be represented on his template with increased Willpower dice. When you put all your dice in Lightsaber, it sounds more to me like your character was planning for the next big fight instead of concentrating on controlling his emotions and behaving morally.
Player: Yeah, but...
GM: Oh, quit whining! This one's just going to be Very Easy Difficulty, and you have 5D in Willpower, so you'd have to screw up pretty badly to mess up on this roll. Of course, later on, if he starts taunting you with Dun Moch, the Difficulty will go up, so be careful.
Player: But I think he should be able to stay calm.
| Quote: | GM: Doesn't matter. Just because you can be calm it doesn't mean your PC can. You need to make a willpower roll.
Player: <sarcastically> Fine. I roll 22. |
GM: Very good. Your character felt a spike of anger at seeing the man who murdered his father, but he has fallen back on his training and remembered the anger leads to the Dark Side.
Skip Ahead A Few Rounds:
GM: Ok, Darth Serious has been taunting you using the Sith Dun Moch technique {Rules for Dun Moch and to taunt an opponent into losing control are as yet undefined}. This one is going to be harder. Roll Willpower.
Player: (rolls) 23
| Quote: | GM: It was very difficult. You fail. You are so angry you draw your light saber and attack Darth Serious. <play out combat where player uses a FP and Darth Serious dies>
GM: You acted in anger, you get a DSP.
Player: Wow. That was sure fun. |
GM: Look, I've been warning you for weeks that this could happen. If you had one or two more dice in Willpower, you would've beaten that Willpower roll, but you're the one who decided to dump all your CPs into combat skills. What are you going to complain about next; that your character got shot because he didn't have enough dice in Dodge, even though you think that shot should've missed?
Player: (grumbles)
GM: Look, just follow the rules for DSP atonement and put some more dice in Willpower and you'll be fine. Consider it an opportunity to practice good roleplaying next time.
| Quote: | | That's what I want to avoid. |
It's not that hard to avoid a rule that doesn't really exist at this point. Silly me for expecting constructive criticism as opposed to people basing negative opinions solely on their own personal opinions and personal gaming experiences. I want a rule that works and works fairly because I see a place for it, and I'm not going to abandon it just because a few people don't like it.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | What do you guys do when sessions cover a very long stretch of time?
Some of our sessions have ended up covering several weeks even a month of actual in game time and some sessions only cover a few hours of in game time. Do both types of session still only count as one session for DSP redemption? |
For the 'sparks' universe, regardless of whether the module covers 1 week (6 days as one did) or 3 weeks (as many do) it counts for 1 of 3 parts for atonement.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Dark side point attonement. |
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| Bren wrote: | Here's what I want to avoid:
Scene #5
Player: My character is angry, but he knows that as a Jedi he can't just kill the victim. And he has learned in the past that anger is the path to the Dark Side. I want to take a moment to get my emotions under control. I remind myself of the Jedi mantra..."There is no emotion, only peace." Once I am calm I enter the chamber.
GM: You see Darth Serious. You remember he killed your father. You are very angry. You have to make a willpower roll.
Player: Hey! My Jedi knows anger is the path to the Dark Side and he specifically wanted to recite the Jedi Oath and wait until he was calm before entering the room. |
| crmcneill wrote: | | GM: Yes, but that is an expression of Willpower, which I told you two months ago was going to start coming into play with this new rule. You've had four chances to put dice in Willpower and you've put it all in Lightsaber. You may say that your character knows that, but that's just you talking. If your character knew that, it would be represented on his template with increased Willpower dice. When you put all your dice in Lightsaber, it sounds more to me like your character was planning for the next big fight instead of concentrating on controlling his emotions and behaving morally. |
I'm not sure I'd consider that willpower. More like knowledge of the Jedi code and temperament if the player had always considered the Jedi code or tried to act detatched and logical at all given opportunities then it doesn't really make sense to force a Willpower roll here.
| crmcneill wrote: | Of course, later on, if he starts taunting you with Dun Moch, the Difficulty will go up, so be careful.
Skip Ahead A Few Rounds:
GM: Ok, Darth Serious has been taunting you using the Sith Dun Moch technique {Rules for Dun Moch and to taunt an opponent into losing control are as yet undefined}. This one is going to be harder. Roll Willpower.
GM: It was very difficult. You fail. You are so angry you draw your light saber and attack Darth Serious. <play out combat where player uses a FP and Darth Serious dies>
GM: You acted in anger, you get a DSP.
Player: Wow. That was sure fun. |
I also am not fond of a power that makes you attack someone harder. I can't imagine a single Sith/Darksider that is so committed to evil that they want you to kill them except for Palpatine and he had an army of clones to possess so being killed really didn't make that much difference to him.
| garhkal wrote: | | For the 'sparks' universe, regardless of whether the module covers 1 week (6 days as one did) or 3 weeks (as many do) it counts for 1 of 3 parts for atonement. |
So it's in an atoning players best interest to make the sessions as short as possible so he can be done with his atonement first?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For the 'sparks' universe, regardless of whether the module covers 1 week (6 days as one did) or 3 weeks (as many do) it counts for 1 of 3 parts for atonement. |
Well, since regardless of the "IN GAME" time of the module/session, each lasts 3:45 in real time (if we manage to complete it)
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Dark side point attonement. |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | I'm not sure I'd consider that willpower. More like knowledge of the Jedi code and temperament if the player had always considered the Jedi code or tried to act detatched and logical at all given opportunities then it doesn't really make sense to force a Willpower roll here. |
No other skill really fits. Willpower is about the character's strength of will and resisting Persuasion and Intimidation attempts, plus it can be used to force your body to push itself beyond its limits if you fail a Stamina roll. It's not a huge step to have this mind-over-matter skill also have the effect of using it to show the character's ability to retain control over his emotions in high-pressure situations, like facing the man who killed his father...
| Quote: | | I also am not fond of a power that makes you attack someone harder. I can't imagine a single Sith/Darksider that is so committed to evil that they want you to kill them except for Palpatine and he had an army of clones to possess so being killed really didn't make that much difference to him. |
Well, Dun Moch is less of a power, and more like Force enhanced Persuasion. Basically, the Dun Moch adept is using the insight of the Force to make a psychological attack on his opponent in mid-duel. There are several instances of successful uses of this technique throughout the films, and the motivation behind all of them was personal revenge of some sort.
The idea here is that the Sith is goading his opponent into losing control and performing an act that could potentially gain him a DSP, depending on what he does while he has lost control. He's not looking to get killed; he's looking to make his opponent do something foolish and give in to the Darkness in himself.
| Quote: | | So it's in an atoning players best interest to make the sessions as short as possible so he can be done with his atonement first? |
The best way to do this is let the GM decide how long the actual length of two sessions is. It may be two playing sessions, or it may be two in-game sessions, each broken up into separate gaming sessions, so a character could conceivably be atoning for 3-4 gaming sessions. And of course, if he tries to cheat and cut corners, he has to start all over 
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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