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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | If a character can roll his Alien Species roll to receive a bonus to First Aid or Blaster (by identifying vulnerable points on alien anatomy), then the same should hold true for droids, vehicles, starships, etc. . |
but then again, you also have to come up with penalties for those who make LOW rolls, or flat out don't have the skill to balance it out.
| Quote: | And remember, just bacause the player knows something doesn't mean the PC does. Make them roll to see if their character knows what they do, or maybe even knows more than they do.
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I have had at one time, flat out told someone they continue to use their OOC knowledge IC the way they were without giving me any proper justification for how his character would know it (former independent salvage op, now new recruit to rebel mil, knowing all about rebel tactics, imperial tactics, comms breaking etc... cause he as a player had read all the books/novels etc... Even with me getting to the point of "keep it up and you can flat out leave my table", he didn't stop.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | but then again, you also have to come up with penalties for those who make LOW rolls, or flat out don't have the skill to balance it out. |
Yes, but if I understand Bren correctly, he's suggesting that there should just be penalties for failed Knowledge rolls, but not bonuses.
| Quote: | | I have had at one time, flat out told someone they continue to use their OOC knowledge IC the way they were without giving me any proper justification for how his character would know it (former independent salvage op, now new recruit to rebel mil, knowing all about rebel tactics, imperial tactics, comms breaking etc... cause he as a player had read all the books/novels etc... Even with me getting to the point of "keep it up and you can flat out leave my table", he didn't stop. |
Players, in general and in most particulars, are cheaters. As a GM, I prefer to have a "law library" of sorts to back my rulings, as in, if I make a ruling, then I want to be able to point to a specific place in the book with specific wording that justifies how I ruled. To me, the phrase "because I'm the GM" reminds me too much of my mother and the phrase "because I said so". I should've been a lawyer. And in some ways, I am: a rules lawyer. 
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As a GM, I prefer to have a "law library" of sorts to back my rulings, as in, if I make a ruling, then I want to be able to point to a specific place in the book with specific wording that justifies how I ruled. To me, the phrase "because I'm the GM" reminds me too much of my mother and the phrase "because I said so". I should've been a lawyer. And in some ways, I am: a rules lawyer |
It does suck, but sometimes there is a reason (not in a book) a gm rules in a specific way for things..
like for adnd. I have seen a lot of montyhaulism caused by allowing Port holes/bags of holding to be teleported around with the owner.. so i make it that teleport/dimention door/rope trick or other forms of dimentional travel affect those Extradimentional items in the same 'destructive' manner putting one inside another causes..
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Yes, but if I understand Bren correctly, he's suggesting that there should just be penalties for failed Knowledge rolls, but not bonuses. |
Mostly.
| crmcneill wrote: | These are all good suggestions, but I still like the idea of Knowledge skills being able to provide practical application bonuses to other, non-Knowledge skills. Some examples:
-A character with a high Law Enforcement...
-A character with a high Alien Species or Cultures skill...
... a high Cultures or Alien Species roll might determine threats or coercion techniques that would be more effective against the particular being than just a straight Intimidation roll. |
Those all sound reasonable to me.
| Quote: | | Also, I've often wondered why Intimidation isn't a Perception skill. Perception seems like a better fit. IMO, Intimidation is more about reading your target and knowing when and how to push. I'm not even sure how Knowledge even applies. |
Two reasons: (1) to prevent PER from being overpowered and
(2) to prevent KNO from being a total dump stat. I also don't see PER as central to Intimidation. Some very intimidating people are not very perceptive. Just damn scary.
| Quote: | | Or maybe I could make the character roll his own Willpower to resist giving in to baser emotions rather than depending on the player's OOC knowledge and perspective to decide what the character does or doesn't do. Good idea, Bren. Glad you thought of it. |
I agree it is a player-GM problem. But what you suggest just rewards the low willpower character. Which is not what I think you want to do.
Better to make the player roll for the character's knowledge to be able to think of that same thing the player thought of. That works for most of my players because they understand and agree on the difference between in-game and out-of-game knowledge. If your players don't understand and agree try education first. If that fails then hit 'em in the pocket book as it were and disencentivize bad behavior by deducting CPs for the offenders and reward good behavior by adding CPs to those that avoid acting on out-of-game knowledge.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Give them a penalty or increase the difficulty if they don't know the right things. |
These are all excellent suggestions, but I'm still not seeing anything that invalidates my premise. |
Nothing seems broke to me. I'm not sure I understand what you see in need of fixing.
I'll give you an example of how I see it.
GM: You enter Gazi's, as you sit down at the table in the corner, a big green reptile with a red feathered crest is making a whistling hissing noise as he comes towards you, you notice his feathered crest is standing straight up. What do you want to do?
I deliberately made up an alien, therefore I know the player knows no more than his character, maybe less. A successful Alien species roll would let the character (and hence the player) know:- Crest straight up means the green alien is (GM chooses one or more of the following) angry, male, sexually aroused, is treating you with respect, is making a territorial display (you took is table?), etc.
- Whistling/hissing sound means - here you could use the same list or maybe whistling/hissing is just how these aliens communicate or indicates they are very hungry or thirsty. A failed roll means the PC doesn't know what these things mean. A complication from a 1 on the wild die could give an incorrect (possibly opposite) interpretation.
Somehow, the encounter results in a bar fight.  The player states he wants to know if his character can hit the alien in a vulnerable spot. Again this could be an alien species roll. If he succeeds, he might get a bonus to his damage or alternately he might just overcome a disadvantage for an alien that seems to be very different in construction than whatever species the PC is. The problem I have with a bonus vs. the alien is what does the PC roll to increase damage someone of his/her/its own species? Isn't that already covered by increases in the brawling or melee combat skill?
If it is a species known to the player, they still make the rolls as above but if they fail you tell them their character doesn't know what they know. Now they either are willing to roleplay that out or not. Whether they are successful in playing within the character's knowledge effects CP awards.
I don't see the need for new KNO skills and additional tables of modifiers. Maybe if I knew what result you are trying to accomplish, rather than just the mechanism you want to use to accomplish the result, I might be able to provide more useful input. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Hows about rather than bonuses, we just have a penalty chart.. the better your roll, the more of the penalty you off set.
So in the above brawl ex.
NO alien species skill = -4d to hit/dam (either will work
Easy roll on alien species = -3d
Moderate = -2d
Difficult = -1d
V/diff = no penalty.
Same species on same species has no issues here.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:22 am Post subject: |
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The problem with that is that, if you don't know anything about the species, you're basically handicapped in a fight. But a Wookiee who has never seen or heard of a Falleen is still going to knock its lights out with a 5D strength punch.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Hows about rather than bonuses, we just have a penalty chart.. the better your roll, the more of the penalty you off set. |
That makes sense. I don't want another chart, but if you do, that one looks OK to me.
| crmcneill wrote: | | But a Wookiee who has never seen or heard of a Falleen is still going to knock its lights out with a 5D strength punch. |
Sound right to me.
I'm also ok with occasional bonuses. For me it depends. Here is some of what it depends on, not in any particular order:
Will it make the episode more dramatic or interesting?
Will it move the plot forward rather than hanging up the adventure at an uninteresting point?
Will it reward a player for using his character's skills in a way that seems inventive but true to the character?
Will it make the game more enjoyable for this player? For the other players?
Does it sound entertaining to me?
Will it be reasonably consistent with the way the in-game universe has behaved in the past?
Will setting this precedent for a bonus/penalty unbalance this (or other) character's power?
I'm not into the kind of strict rules interpretation that you both seem to be so I don't feel the need to try to have a hard and fast rule or to try to fit every circumstance into one size fits all boxes. Absent trying to run conference play or some such like garhkal does, it is more important to me to fit the rules to the gaming group rather than the other way around. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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The penalties need not be huge, It'd probably just add between +1 to +1D to the alien's soak to represent hitting a hardened area rather than vulnerable spot.
Or there is always the classic:
"You bring your boot up between it's legs as hard as you can hoping to incapacitate the alien and end this fight. While you connect solidly and you see the creature wince slightly it doesn't get anywhere near the reaction you were hoping for and the alien shoves you back when you weren't expecting it causing you to tumble over the bar behind you and smash an expensive bottle of rare wine. Are you sure you're fighting a male?"
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | The penalties need not be huge, It'd probably just add between +1 to +1D to the alien's soak to represent hitting a hardened area rather than vulnerable spot. |
Another aspect would be that the bonuses would be cumulative if there were multiple applicable knowledge skills. A character who rolled well on Alien Species, Cultures and Law Enforcement when dealing with an Iotran Braceman could potentially receive bonuses from all three skills.
| Quote: | Or there is always the classic:
"You bring your boot up between it's legs as hard as you can hoping to incapacitate the alien and end this fight. While you connect solidly and you see the creature wince slightly it doesn't get anywhere near the reaction you were hoping for and the alien shoves you back when you weren't expecting it causing you to tumble over the bar behind you and smash an expensive bottle of rare wine. Are you sure you're fighting a male?" |
And don't forget:
Kirk: I'm lucky that thing had knees.
Martia: That was not his knee.
Kirk: Huh?
Martia: Not everyone keeps their genitals in the same place.
Kirk: Anything you want to tell me?
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: | | The penalties need not be huge, It'd probably just add between +1 to +1D to the alien's soak to represent hitting a hardened area rather than vulnerable spot. |
Another aspect would be that the bonuses would be cumulative if there were multiple applicable knowledge skills. A character who rolled well on Alien Species, Cultures and Law Enforcement when dealing with an Iotran Braceman could potentially receive bonuses from all three skills.
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If he is using multiple skills, then he is taking multiple MAPS. So unless he rolls REAL WELL< his Multi action penalty will soak up any bonuses he might get.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If he is using multiple skills, then he is taking multiple MAPS. So unless he rolls REAL WELL< his Multi action penalty will soak up any bonuses he might get. |
Unless he has a few rounds to prep, like a Jedi splitting his C/S/A rolls between rounds to avoid MAPs
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | Two reasons: (1) to prevent PER from being overpowered and
(2) to prevent KNO from being a total dump stat. I also don't see PER as central to Intimidation. Some very intimidating people are not very perceptive. Just d*mn scary. |
Nor are they necessarily smart, either. In fact, some of the smartest people I know are some of the least intimidating
| Quote: | | I agree it is a player-GM problem. But what you suggest just rewards the low willpower character. Which is not what I think you want to do. |
Wait, what? How does it reward a low Willpower character when the low Willpower character is the one more likely to lose control and end up in a bad situation?
| Quote: | | Better to make the player roll for the character's knowledge to be able to think of that same thing the player thought of. That works for most of my players because they understand and agree on the difference between in-game and out-of-game knowledge. If your players don't understand and agree try education first. If that fails then hit 'em in the pocket book as it were and disencentivize bad behavior by deducting CPs for the offenders and reward good behavior by adding CPs to those that avoid acting on out-of-game knowledge. |
Exactly. It works for your players. It would be nice if we were all so lucky, but we aren't. The groups I play with lately usually end up being a scratch group of strangers, not a bunch of buddies who have known each other for years. There isn't always enough time to punish bad behavior with CP penalties; sometimes you have to find a way to curtail certain behaviors mid-game.
| Quote: | | Nothing seems broke to me. I'm not sure I understand what you see in need of fixing. |
It's not about fixing. It's about tweaking the rules of a flexible game system to fit the personal preferences of an individual or small group.
| Quote: | | If it is a species known to the player, they still make the rolls as above but if they fail you tell them their character doesn't know what they know. Now they either are willing to roleplay that out or not. Whether they are successful in playing within the character's knowledge effects CP awards. |
I refer you to my point from above. Rewarding characters with CPs works fine in a long term game played between mutual friends. Short term games played with relative strangers require a little less carrot and a lot more stick. Besides, you can still reward characters with CPs for good roleplaying; the difference is that the roleplaying stems from a dice roll, not a biased player's personal choice. The dice is the only reliable and fair interface between a character and a player, and really should feature more strongly in the character's mental and emotional state, as opposed to leaving it up to the player.
| Quote: | | I don't see the need for new KNO skills and additional tables of modifiers. Maybe if I knew what result you are trying to accomplish, rather than just the mechanism you want to use to accomplish the result, I might be able to provide more useful input. |
In the example you used above, you used an Alien Species roll to provide that information to the character and the player. However, the example does nothing to show how the character actually uses said information, and using dice bonuses to apply said information to the character's Persuasion skill is as good a modifier as any.
In my experience, Knowledge really is one of the more useless of attributes when it comes to practical application. My goal here is to provide a little more balance by making the Knowledge attribute a little more attractive during character creation, by allowing the character with a lot of dice in Knowledge skills to be able to use that knowledge more effectively in a broader scope of circumstances. It's more attractive to the player to tell them "Well, if you have a high Alien Species skill, you can roll to get bonus dice on some of your Persuasion skills, as well as a degree of improved weapon accuracy when you shoot at them" than it is to tell them "Well, with Alien Species, if you roll high, you know more stuff about that strange alien you just met."
Dice values are the currency that players understand, so if you want to make a new rule attractive, it needs to be packaged and sold properly. For your guys, CPs bonuses would probably work. I generally play with a different class of player.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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We seem to be in agreement that intimidation doesn't have an obvious place it belongs. I suspect, intimidation and willpower ended up in KNO as game design attempt to balance KNO and PER. Since you want to make KNO more important it seems you should leave those skills there. | crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | I agree it is a player-GM problem. But what you suggest just rewards the low willpower character. Which is not what I think you want to do. |
Wait, what? How does it reward a low Willpower character when the low Willpower character is the one more likely to lose control and end up in a bad situation?
You said, "Or maybe I could make the character roll his own Willpower to resist giving in to baser emotions rather than depending on the player's OOC knowledge and perspective to decide what the character does or doesn't do." So if my character has a low Willpower, he fails the roll and relies on his baser emotions and OOC knowledge. While the high Willpower character makes the roll and therefore cannot use the OOC knowledge. How is that a penalty for having a low Willpower?
The groups I play with lately usually end up being a scratch group of strangers, not a bunch of buddies who have known each other for years. There isn't always enough time to punish bad behavior with CP penalties; sometimes you have to find a way to curtail certain behaviors mid-game.
Then I am curious why you want to encourage them to spend more attribute and skill dice on KNO skills. For one off characters and players, my response would really be - who cares if they want to run relatively ignorant characters?
Alternately, why not just let them take the skills they want and make the character roll on a KNO skill (which they don't have) to use any out of game knowledge? That seems like a relatively simple stick.
| Quote: | | If it is a species known to the player, they still make the rolls as above but if they fail you tell them their character doesn't know what they know. Now they either are willing to roleplay that out or not. Whether they are successful in playing within the character's knowledge effects CP awards. |
I refer you to my point from above. Rewarding characters with CPs works fine in a long term game played between mutual friends. Short term games played with relative strangers require a little less carrot and a lot more stick. Besides, you can still reward characters with CPs for good roleplaying; the difference is that the roleplaying stems from a dice roll, not a biased player's personal choice. The dice is the only reliable and fair interface between a character and a player, and really should feature more strongly in the character's mental and emotional state, as opposed to leaving it up to the player.
I must still be missing your objective. I don't see how making tasks easier if they have KNO skills is a stick to discourage acting on OOC knowledge. Why not just tell them. No Bill your character doesn't know about Wookiee life debts, Coynite honor codes, where the vulnerable areas are on a Twilek, etc? | Quote: | | I don't see the need for new KNO skills and additional tables of modifiers. Maybe if I knew what result you are trying to accomplish, rather than just the mechanism you want to use to accomplish the result, I might be able to provide more useful input. |
In the example you used above, you used an Alien Species roll to provide that information to the character and the player. However, the example does nothing to show how the character actually uses said information, and using dice bonuses to apply said information to the character's Persuasion skill is as good a modifier as any.
We seem to be in agreement, adding a preferential modifier or alternatively lowering the difficulty is what I do, e.g. difficulty is moderate if you know about target's customs and language, difficult if you only know one of the two, very difficult if you know neither. I tend to prefer this mechanic because it is mentally easier for me to assume human vs. human as the base and then adjust the difficulty upwards from there. But mathematically it is six of one half a dozen of the other. The actual numbers are situational for me, so an actual table would be ungainly and kind of pointless.
In my experience, Knowledge really is one of the more useless of attributes when it comes to practical application.
With limited exceptions, it often works that way in the real world too, in my experience.
My goal here is to provide a little more balance by making the Knowledge attribute a little more attractive during character creation...
Dice values are the currency that players understand, so if you want to make a new rule attractive, it needs to be packaged and sold properly. For your guys, CPs bonuses would probably work. I generally play with a different class of player. |
Still don't get why you want to get players to spend more of their very limited starting skill and attribute dice on KNO though. I guess I may just have to take that as a prediliction of yours that I don't understand. But making KNO attribute and skillls more attractive is really a separate issue from discouraging players from acting on OOC knowledge. You might have greater success to treat the two issues separately rather than combining them. I find discussing the difference between OOC and in character and explaining what behavior is and is not acceptable is helpful for some players. Probably more helpful than a rules patch that gives them a bonus for having good KNO skills.
In my experience, it is hard for a player to plausibly argue that their 2D KNO low tech barbarian character with no tactics and nor starfighter piloting should be able to invent a brilliant starfighter attack pattern (that they read in an X-wing novel or adapted from their OOC knowledge of tactics) to take out a damaged ISD with no losses. If they don't get the point after discussing in character vs. out of character, I'd just forbid their character from thinking of that action plan. Now, on the other hand, I might allow the starfighter squadron leader PC to be the one who thinks of the brilliant plan (that the other player thought of OOC). Although I might require the squadron commander to make a tactics role. This way the players are rewarded for cooperating to come up with a good plan, while the characters act consistent with their in-game skills and abilities.
Mostly my players who want to run knowledgy characters do so cause they like running a character that knows stuff, not because they see that as a more effective way to power game. Probably the best game advantage for most players that want to be good at KNO skills would be something like the spirit of the Century system previously mentioned by someone else on the board (thank you insightful but currently nameless poster; I tried a search to give you credit, but my computer is acting cranky  EDIT - that was atgxtg) where they use their KNO to come up with Space Opera solutions that the actiony characters have to help to carry out.
As far as OOC vs IC, good roleplayers roleplay cause they think that is fun. CPs are a way to add a little incentive, but even in systems without CPs, e.g. Call of Cthulhu or Runequest most of them still roleplay.
Last edited by Bren on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I've done, from time to time, is to allo for complementary skill use. Basically when one skill could and should help with another skill. Basically what seems to be the goal here.
I let the character roll the complementary skill at the same difficulty that the task would normally be. If successful the character can add the number of dice he has in the complementary skill to the die roll for the second skill. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I let the character roll the complementary skill at the same difficulty that the task would normally be. If successful the character can add the number of dice he has in the complementary skill to the die roll for the second skill. |
I use complementary skills, but with a smaller bonus, typically between 1/2 the complementary skill dice or as low as +1D or a reduction in the difficulty one level. |
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