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Bren
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 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Along these lines, should there be another Knowledge skill to cover Technology? This would be something along the lines of a skill to cover someone who is well-read in the capabilities and parameters of equipment, without actually knowing how to repair it. |
Would Scholar: appropriate area cover it? |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Along these lines, should there be another Knowledge skill to cover Technology? This would be something along the lines of a skill to cover someone who is well-read in the capabilities and parameters of equipment, without actually knowing how to repair it. |
Scholar: Technology. Though 1st ed DID have a technology skill, when 2nd ed R&E came out it was removed and put under a school of scholar.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I'm leaning more towards reviving Technology as a skill. That way, you could have specializations for specific areas of technology, like Technology: Space Transports or Technology: Droids, etc.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I'm leaning more towards reviving Technology as a skill. That way, you could have specializations for specific areas of technology, like Technology: Space Transports or Technology: Droids, etc. |
That sounds like Scholar: Droids to me. In what way would Technology: Droids be different? |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | That sounds like Scholar: Droids to me. In what way would Technology: Droids be different? |
In the sense that it would allow the character to improve his knowledge of Technology in general as a normal skill. Considering how broad the scope of technology is, IMO, it's more appropriate that such a subject be improved as a normal skill, and not a specialization (i.e. at normal cost, instead of half cost)
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | That sounds like Scholar: Droids to me. In what way would Technology: Droids be different? |
In the sense that it would allow the character to improve his knowledge of Technology in general as a normal skill. Considering how broad the scope of technology is, IMO, it's more appropriate that such a subject be improved as a normal skill, and not a specialization (i.e. at normal cost, instead of half cost) |
So in effect it would be similar to the Language skill where increasing your base Language skill lets you know how to understand and speak all languages better, correct? |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | So in effect it would be similar to the Language skill where increasing your base Language skill lets you know how to understand and speak all languages better, correct? |
Correct. Technology may be a broad subject, with a lot of possibilities for specializations in specific facets of technology, but IMO, technology in general is also interconnected to a sufficient degree that a person with a high enough general knowledge of Technology would also be relatively knowledgeable in the subsets covered by the specialization.
As far as Languages, it sounds somewhat ridiculous on the surface, due to the obvious differences in the various languages, but I had a friend in college who was born in Hong Kong and grew up speaking English, French and Cantonese. We went on a trip to Eastern Europe and it was amazing how quickly he picked up the local Slavic language. When I asked him about it, he said that growing up knowing multiple languages shaped his thought process such that he thought in terms of ideas or thought pictures, and attached the appropriate word in each language to that idea. As such, when he learned new words in a new language, it was easy for him to mentally connect those new words to existing ideas. To me, that's how the language skill works. A person who approaches languages from a holistic perspective does, in fact, gain a better understanding of languages by improving their language abilities in general.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | So in effect it would be similar to the Language skill... |
Correct. Technology may be a broad subject, with a lot of possibilities for specializations in specific facets of technology, but IMO, technology in general is also interconnected to a sufficient degree that a person with a high enough general knowledge of Technology would also be relatively knowledgeable in the subsets covered by the specialization. |
OK now I understand. Thanks for explaining.
It seems redundant to the TECH attribute and the Scholar skill to me, so I'll pass. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | OK now I understand. Thanks for explaining.
It seems redundant to the TECH attribute and the Scholar skill to me, so I'll pass. |
On the surface, you are correct. However, if we are pursuing the idea of Knowledge skills providing bonuses to practical applications, then a Technology skill becomes more necessary. If a character can roll his Alien Species roll to receive a bonus to First Aid or Blaster (by identifying vulnerable points on alien anatomy), then the same should hold true for droids, vehicles, starships, etc. It concede that it does overlap with a lot of the Technical skills to a degree, but a Knowledge Skill would reflect, for example, the training that soldiers receive with regards to targeting the weak spots on an enemy armored vehicle; it doesn't mean they know how to repair it, it just means that they know where to shoot it to make it blow up more effectively.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | On the surface, you are correct. However, if we are pursuing the idea of Knowledge skills providing bonuses to practical applications, then a Technology skill becomes more necessary. If a character can roll his Alien Species roll to receive a bonus to First Aid or Blaster... |
A bonus seems illogical. Humans don't get a bonus to blaster or first aid on a human just by virtue of being human. The knowledge of alien species should be acting to remove a penalty for targeting or first aiding an unfamiliar species not making it easier to attack or patch up a species other than your own.
Adding more and more skills that essentially overlap existing skills or attributes is not a direction I'm interested in and seems contrary to the underlying fast paced, simple mechanics that I see as being at the heart of D6. So to quote something I've been seeing a lot lately, "Let's agree to respect each others' views, no matter how wrong yours may be." |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | A bonus seems illogical. Humans don't get a bonus to blaster or first aid on a human just by virtue of being human. The knowledge of alien species should be acting to remove a penalty for targeting or first aiding an unfamiliar species not making it easier to attack or patch up a species other than your own. |
I'm looking at it from a perspective of trying to make Knowledge more practically useful by good Knowledge rolls providing bonuses to practical skill applications, mostly in Perception and Technical, but with some overlap into Dexterity and Mechanical as well. Your point is a valid one, and one that I would like to take into account for a working version of this rule. Any suggestions?
| Quote: | | Adding more and more skills that essentially overlap existing skills or attributes is not a direction I'm interested in and seems contrary to the underlying fast paced, simple mechanics that I see as being at the heart of D6. |
IMO, overlap of skills is perfectly normal, especially when combining practical and theoretical application. Of all the six attributes, Knowledge deals almost exclusively with theoretical application. The idea here is not so much that we are creating new skills as we are creating methods for those theoretical skills to be applied in practical applications. In many ways, Knowledge is probably the most useless attribute in an action oriented game, so providing ways for Knowledge to improve the practical skills would actually bring the skill into greater balance.
| Quote: | | So to quote something I've been seeing a lot lately, "Let's agree to respect each others' views, no matter how wrong yours may be." |
Well played, sir, well played 
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | I'm looking at it from a perspective of trying to make Knowledge more practically useful by good Knowledge rolls providing bonuses to practical skill applications, mostly in Perception and Technical, but with some overlap into Dexterity and Mechanical as well. Your point is a valid one, and one that I would like to take into account for a working version of this rule. Any suggestions?
In many ways, Knowledge is probably the most useless attribute in an action oriented game, so providing ways for Knowledge to improve the practical skills would actually bring the skill into greater balance. |
I think you are looking at knowledge from the wrong direction. It is only useless if you don't provide a need for it.
Run an episode in each adventure that doesn't depend just on combat or chase scenes. If the PCs make the knowledge roll they figure out where to go, what they need, who to see, and maybe even what they might want. If they don't let them fumble around and stir up trouble. And don't give them CPs for defeating foes they never needed to fight.
On the other hand you might give out a CP or two if they use knowledge skills to avoid obstacles.*
And remember, just bacause the player knows something doesn't mean the PC does. Make them roll to see if their character knows what they do, or maybe even knows more than they do. 
But even if you are in an action only campaign there are still several key knowledge skills -
Intimidation - the non-force user's version of affect mind. Let the PCs (or NPCs) roll intimidation vs. the target's choice of intimidation or willpower. If one character is intimidated then he has a minus versus the intimidator dice penalty based on how much he outscored the opponent. If the Intimidator succeeds he may cause the intimidated to back down. But there is a risk, if both use intimidation and no one backs down the situation escalates, probaby to a fight. If the player insists on fighting with a -2D penalty - good luck to them. On the other hand, if the player who upped their intimidation gets an effective +2d bonus, they may decide to talk first and shoot only after they get their intimidation bonus. 8)
Survival - make the environment the enemy. Hand out damage based on fatigue (without survival you just don't know how to move efficiently in hostile environments), thirst, hypothermia, heat exhaustion, poisonous plants, insects, etc.
Tactics - you already know how bonuses in combat can factor in.
Willpower - can resist intimidation, can over ride a failed stamina roll, can resist mind control force abilities - or at least I use it for that.
Also, some knowledge skills are necessary to use other skills effectively - Slicers without bureaucracy are handicapped.
Bargain, command, con, and persuade are useless if you can't speak the other's language. And such skills should have increased difficulty if you don't understand another alien species.
Give them a penalty or increase the difficulty if they don't know the right things.
We use Culture to know how to behave in high society (sort of the complement of streetwise which is for underground society).
Here is cruelly fun way to show the no knowledge skill PCs the error of their ways and have some evil fun at their expense when they drink the water in their finger bowl,  eat the centerpiece as a salad,  neglect to sever the spinal cord on their live land prawn and have it bite their tongue,  and slurp up their dessert with their neighbor's used ear spoon. 
* One thing I saw somewhere (not SWs) recently was x3 experience for outwitting a foe, x2 for capturing or defeating without killing, and x1 for killing opponents. Something like this works well in any genre where the heroes (or the villains) capture overwhelmed opponents rather than killing them outright.
So Batman doesn't capture the Joker instead of killing him just because he has a no kill moral code. Kill the Joker = x1 experience. Repeatedly capture him (4 different times) and collect twelve times the experience. 
Last edited by Bren on Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Knowledge is one of the first attribute I try to max out, most of the skills in it are generally useful at some time or other.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | Knowledge is one of the first attribute I try to max out, most of the skills in it are generally useful at some time or other. |
Even our KNO 2D combat monsters end up putting CPs to KNO skills because they need them at some time and they have to have Intimidation or Willpower or both. Also unless they run in a party where someone always has a good knowledge they often have to spend quite a few CPs. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | I think you are looking at knowledge from the wrong direction. It is only useless if you don't provide a need for it.
Run an episode in each adventure that doesn't depend just on combat or chase scenes. If the PCs make the knowledge roll they figure out where to go, what they need, who to see, and maybe even what they might want. If they don't let them fumble around and stir up trouble. And don't give them CPs for defeating foes they never needed to fight.
On the other hand you might give out a CP or two if they use knowledge skills to avoid obstacles.* |
These are all good suggestions, but I still like the idea of Knowledge skills being able to provide practical application bonuses to other, non-Knowledge skills. Some examples:
-A character with a high Law Enforcement skill could roll that skill to increase Persuasion, Intimidation, Willpower, and Con skills because his Knowledge of police procedures and techniques would allow him insight.
-A character with a high Alien Species or Cultures skill could roll either of those to increase the same listed skills with regards to interaction with a specific species or cultural group.
It's a simple real-life fact that knowledge isn't divided into discrete categories that do not interact. Fields of knowledge overlap and provide bonuses and insight into other fields, and that is what I am trying to represent here.
| Quote: | | And remember, just bacause the player knows something doesn't mean the PC does. Make them roll to see if their character knows what they do, or maybe even knows more than they do. |
Or maybe I could make the character roll his own Willpower to resist giving in to baser emotions rather than depending on the player's OOC knowledge and perspective to decide what the character does or doesn't do. Good idea, Bren. Glad you thought of it. 
| Quote: | | Intimidation - the non-force user's version of affect mind. Let the PCs (or NPCs) roll intimidation vs. the target's choice of intimidation or willpower. If one character is intimidated then he has a minus versus the intimidator dice penalty based on how much he outscored the opponent. If the Intimidator succeeds he may cause the intimidated to back down. But there is a risk, if both use intimidation and no one backs down the situation escalates, probaby to a fight. If the player insists on fighting with a -2D penalty - good luck to them. On the other hand, if the player who upped their intimidation gets an effective +2d bonus, they may decide to talk first and shoot only after they get their intimidation bonus. 8) |
Good rule. But again, a high Cultures or Alien Species roll might determine threats or coercion techniques that would be more effective against the particular being than just a straight Intimidation roll.
Also, I've often wondered why Intimidation isn't a Perception skill. Perception seems like a better fit. IMO, Intimidation is more about reading your target and knowing when and how to push. I'm not even sure how Knowledge even applies.
| Quote: | | Give them a penalty or increase the difficulty if they don't know the right things. |
These are all excellent suggestions, but I'm still not seeing anything that invalidates my premise.
| Quote: | | * One thing I saw somewhere (not SWs) recently was x3 experience for outwitting a foe, x2 for capturing or defeating without killing, and x1 for killing opponents. Something like this works well in any genre where the heroes (or the villains) capture overwhelmed opponents rather than killing them outright. |
Nice incentives
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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