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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | The first thing that pops into my mind for Magnify Senses is a range modifier. Basically, on normal Perception, you roll at normal duty inside of, say, 10-20 meters. For every 10-20 meters beyond that (it would be a constant number), the Difficulty for Perception rolls would go up a level. Enhance Attribute would increase the dice level, but Magnify Senses would increase the range, based on how well you rolled, by either increasing the distance covered per "range bracket", or by providing reverse modifiers against the range bracket (i.e. depending on how well you rolled, you may subtract a given number of difficulty levels from the base distance).
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Since up to now, all i have seen pcs use mag senses for is vision, i have just given them the 'effect' as if they were using a pair of macro binoculars. Now if say they went to hearing (putting it so they can hear real low sounds, or higher freqs), i would give them a 1-2d bonus to their Per roll based on how well they beat the diff by;
0-5 over base diff = +1 to per
6-10 over base diff = +2 to per
11-15 over base diff = +1d to per
16-20 over base diff = +1d+1 to per
21-25 over base diff = +1d+2 to per
26-30 over base diff = +2d to per
31+ over = +2d+1 to per...
as an example
| crmcneill wrote: | | Still not sure about Shift Senses, but if MFTAS optics in Stormtrooper helmets have stats and dice bonuses, maybe this should too? |
I might go so far as to allow them to Ignore vision/hearing penalties, similar to how the MTFAS does for smoke screens, but i am not sure for the 'movement' aspect.
| crmcneill wrote: | | But there are no rules in the RAW to describe what the actual limits of Search or Perception are. The closest the RAW gets is in the description of macrobinoculars, where it provides a Perception bonus at ranges greater than 100 meters (Does that mean that objects at 99 meters are too blurry?) I like to have an actual rule in front of me that I can point to or quote, or fudge a little in the interests of the story. |
And as i have mentioned, not everything in d6 needs to be spelled out like it does in d20.
| crmcneill wrote: | | so there is nothing written down anywhere that says that I can't write up optional rules for my own personal use, or that I can't submit said optional rules to my peers for their perusal, advice |
And our 'advice' is that its not needed or wanted.
| ZzaphodD wrote: |
So true, remember the D6 Star Wars rule of thumb! |
Yup. When in doubt, pick a number and roll.. beat it you succeed. You dont you failed.
| Quote: | That's a pretty good one. Nice and simple, although I'm sure there will be others on this list who feel it is another way to unbalance the game in the Jedi's favor (down, garhkal, down! ).
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I might say half sense, but not full.
| Quote: | A few years back I wrote up a rule concept that I never used that would have replaced weapon ranges entirely with a generalized range system. Instead of having weapon ranges listed in meters, the GM would decide whether combat was occurring at Point-Blank, Short, Medium, Long, Very Long or Extreme ranges, and each weapon would have a base difficulty number for how well it performed at each range. Something like a sniper rifle would be almost useless at Point Blank range, but function very well at Extreme, while a Hold-Out Blaster would be deadly at Point Blank, so-so at Short, and relatively useless any further out than that.
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The issue there C, is as a member of the military can tell you, weapon ranges DO matter. Do i need to use this MAR-8 or go with the PKS-9..
I have a 400 meter point target effective range, do i set up my kill zone here, or over there...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Since up to now, all i have seen pcs use mag senses for is vision, i have just given them the 'effect' as if they were using a pair of macro binoculars. Now if say they went to hearing (putting it so they can hear real low sounds, or higher freqs), i would give them a 1-2d bonus to their Per roll based on how well they beat the diff by;
0-5 over base diff = +1 to per
6-10 over base diff = +2 to per
11-15 over base diff = +1d to per
16-20 over base diff = +1d+1 to per
21-25 over base diff = +1d+2 to per
26-30 over base diff = +2d to per
31+ over = +2d+1 to per...
as an example |
If it were up to me, I'd probably just use an open ended version of the Enhance Attribute bonus table. All things considered, I would probably fold Magnify Senses and Shift Senses into a single skill, where the higher Perception or Sense rolls give you more information, including things beyond the normal spectrum that are covered by Shift Senses.
| Quote: | | I might go so far as to allow them to Ignore vision/hearing penalties, similar to how the MTFAS does for smoke screens, but i am not sure for the 'movement' aspect. |
Yeah, me either. I was just using MFTAS in general as an example.
| Quote: | And as i have mentioned, not everything in d6 needs to be spelled out like it does in d20.
And our 'advice' is that its not needed or wanted. |
Your call. I still maintain the description of Magnify Senses is far too general to provide any useful information. I mean, if you really want an example of how poorly written this ability is, look no further than "Modified by Proximity". Using these rules, you can increase the range of your effective normal senses to:
Up to 100 meters away at Easy Difficulty
Up to 1,000 kilometers at Moderate
Anywhere on the same planet more than 1,000km away at Difficult
Other planets in the same star system at Very Difficult
Things outside of the star system at Heroic
This isn't sense enhancement; it's clairvoyance. The whole power reads like someone at WEG wrote it right before they went on a smoke break (i.e. let's just throw something on paper and hope no one notices what crap it is). They gave an absolute minimal description and added in modifier rules without bothering to consider how those modifiers would actually apply to the power
From a rules standpoint, you would get a better, more realistic result from combining Enhance Attribute and Concentrate with your Perception or Search, and ignoring Magnify Senses altogether. Personally, though, I'd rather not throw something out if there is any way that it can be saved.
For starters, if a power is going to give you the ability to extend your senses out to greater range than normal, there should at least be some general guidelines as to what those ranges are. Of course, not everything is going to be dependent on range. Sight and hearing are a given, but taste and touch require physical contact, and smell is somewhere in between. The only real guidelines given under Perception are under the attribute description and the Search skill, and those all cover noticing things in relative proximity; not things at above normal ranges.
| Quote: | | Yup. When in doubt, pick a number and roll.. beat it you succeed. You dont you failed. |
I don't mind that rule, but again, I feel like Magnify Senses, as written, does not provide even the most basic information required to generate a realistic number. After all, if WEG is going to use range numbers for weapons and starship sensors, why not here too?
| Quote: | | I might say half sense, but not full. |
I agree.
| Quote: | The issue there C, is as a member of the military can tell you, weapon ranges DO matter. Do i need to use this MAR-8 or go with the PKS-9..
I have a 400 meter point target effective range, do i set up my kill zone here, or over there... |
I agree completely that weapon ranges are crucial in real life. I just wonder if they are so critical in a roleplaying game. After all, if the WEG rule of thumb is "Pick a number," why does it have to be so exact about ranges and so indistinct about other things?
As I mentioned, I haven't had the chance to try this range concept out in a game, but the idea just won't let go. The simplicity of it with regards to combat actions is attractive. I agree it doesn't accurately reflect real life military combat, but in the SWU, very little does.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps the Lafrarian enhanced vision special ability could be adapted in this situation.
Lafrarian
Home Planet: Lafra
Attribute Dice: 12D
DEXTERITY 1D/4D
KNOWLEDGE 1D/4D
MECHANICAL 2D/5D
PERCEPTION 1D/5D
STRENGTH 1D/3D+1
TECHNICAL 1D/4D
Special Abilities:
Enhanced Vision: Lafrarians evolved from avians predators. They add +2D to all Perceptionor search rolls involving vision and can make all long-range attacks as if they were at medium range.
Story Factors:
Flightless Birds: Lafrarians lost the ability to fly long before they developed intelligence, but to this day are obsessed with flight. They make excellent pilots.
Size:1.4-2 meters tall
Move:9/12
Source: Alien Encounters (page 89), Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook (page 135)
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I can see that.. Shifting long range to medium, medium range to short..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I can see that.. Shifting long range to medium, medium range to short.. |
How does range bracket reduction work on an attribute with no rules for range?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: |
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It makes the base diff less.. Short is easy, me is moderate, long is diff..
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Did Random Numbers tell you that was why he left, or is that another assumption on your part? |
Ill ask him next time we talk, or at least next time were gaming.. |
I understand that life happens and sometimes other things intrude in one's ability to spend time on forums. It happened to me big time over the holidays.
I do hope friction on the forum is not why Rerun left. I miss his wacky posts. Please let him know he is missed. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | It makes the base diff less.. Short is easy, me is moderate, long is diff.. |
And I would very much like to see some sort of generalized range system for Magnify Senses, except that it doesn't exist (which is one of the primary reasons I started this thread). My imagination goes great guns on certain subjects, yet goes nowhere on others, and this is one where I am going nowhere.
I think Magnify Senses needs to have two items:
1). Some sort of specific bonus to Perception or Search (your 1/2 Sense dice is a good one)
2). Some sort of general rules for its own Proximity Modifier chart, plus maybe a few major situational modifiers.
The second part is where I am stuck. Anyone have some ideas?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Urban Spaceman
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Posts: 194
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:53 am Post subject: |
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I've had similar problems with this power.
A couple of things I've tried were:
1. Allow the Jedi to roll the power. Then add the total rolled to any use of Search/Perception the Jedi engages in whilst the power is kept up.
2. Allow the Jedi to roll the power. If successful, they are allowed to add their Sense dice to any Search/Perception roll whilst the power is kept up.
Of the two things I've tried, the second method was probably more successful.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Did Random Numbers tell you that was why he left, or is that another assumption on your part? |
Ill ask him next time we talk, or at least next time were gaming.. |
I understand that life happens and sometimes other things intrude in one's ability to spend time on forums. It happened to me big time over the holidays.
I do hope friction on the forum is not why Rerun left. I miss his wacky posts. Please let him know he is missed. |
Random left exactly because of that. Nothing serious, like being harassed or something. He just couldnt get his head around how some people took role playing so serious to border on rudeness.
In our group we are all a bunch of 40-ish year olds and play RPGs (only SW and WFRP) to get 'the old gang' together for some easy going male bonding (we have all known eachother since the beginning of the 90s and need a common interest to stay in thouch). In that light he didnt want to put up with the 'seriousness' (in the bad sense) that has come to this forum (in his opinion). He just wanted to have a good time. Well see, maybe hell come back. 
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I think I have something worked out. I took the basic Perception Difficulty chart, which was biased predominantly toward sight, and added additional base difficulties for Sound and Scent:
Sound:
Very Easy - A normal conversation
Easy - Normal movement, such as a person walking, but not speaking.
Moderate - Quiet movement (a blaster or knife being drawn, a door lock being picked)
Difficult - A person breathing normally
Heroic - A human heartbeat
Scent:
Very Easy - Strong or well-known odor
Easy - Noticeable or familiar odor
Difficult - Faint or non-specific odor
Heroic - Odor is almost nonexistent or personally unknown to the character.
Note: In an open environment, scent fades over time. The base difficulty of a scent increases by +D6 for every hour that has passed since the scent was left. Scents in a sealed environment, such as a closed room, degrade more slowly (+1 for every hour passed). On a successful roll, the character can estimate the age of the scent.
Tracking by scent is beyond the capacity of normal human senses. Other species with scent-specific senses may have the ability to track someone by scent, but that will have to be decided on a case by case basis with your GM.
Modifiers:
Distance:
+0 - Close range (in the same room or immediate area)
+10 - Moderately far away (Down the block or across the parking lot, within 100 meters)
+20 - Very far away (Can barely be seen with normal human senses, several hundred meters away, up to a full kilometer
+30 - Extreme distances (several kilometers)
Interference:
+0 - Minimal (Open field / quiet room / unused area with few scents)
+5 - Noticeable (Walking in a light crowd / coffee shop, cafe or other moderately populated place)
+10 - Dominant (Large crowd or a dimly lit room / crowded club, etc.)
+20 - Overpowering (Rock concert mosh pit, in the middle of a blaster fight, trying to pick out a specific scent in a garbage dump, etc.)
Now within these base difficulties, my theory is that Magnify Senses gives a bonus to either Perception or Search, equal to +3D or 1/2 the adept's Sense skill, whichever is greater.
I'm still chewing on Shift Sense, but this is a start.
EDIT: Removed the ability to track by scent. I'm going to include it in my version of Shift Senses.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: |
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The more I look at Shift Senses, the more I get the feeling that the simplest explanation is to say that the Shift Senses adept basically gets to act as an organic sensor pack, in so far as they can detect a lifeform or a comm signal or any of a variety of other things that regular hand-held sensors do. That would make this skill a nice counterpart to Life Detection, as it would enable the adept to detect things that aren't normally detectable by the Force itself, such as droids or lifeforms that don't register in the Force. I think I'm going to start looking at the Sensors skill for ideas.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Enhance Senses (Combination of Magnify Senses and Shift Senses)
Sense Difficulty:
Very Easy - The adept's senses are increased in general sensitivity, sensing at a greater distance, and with greater detail, but still constrained by his body's natural limitations. Bonus to the adept's Perception or Search equal to +3D or +1/2 the adept's Sense dice, whichever is greater
Moderate - The adept can see into the infrared and ultraviolet spectrums, hear super and subsonic noises and can identify chemicals normally too complex for humans to discren. The adept ignores all cover modifiers on Perception / Search rolls, and can track by scent on a succesful Perception or Search roll.
Difficult - The adept's senses extend even further from the human norm, allowing him to focus on detection of a single phenomenon, such as a lifeforms, comm transmissions, energy sources, radiation, or a common chemicals, along with some general information (an estimated count of multiple contacts, general lifeform identification, comm or sensor frequency, and general direction and distance).
Very Difficult - The adept literally functions as a human sensor array. He can detect and combine multiple sensor phenomenon to paint a more detailed picture of what he has detected, and his sensory input now includes gravitic anomalies, vibration detection (through air, water or solid) and the identification of complex chemicals (such as exotic explosives, tibanna blaster gas, or organic pheromones). He can identify devices and vehicles by type (blasters, firearms, datapads, explosives, speeders, walkers, etc.), pick a specific contact out of a group of similar contacts, can identify exact numbers and give exact distance and range to the target.
All bonuses are cumulative, and Difficulty numbers are modified by Distance and Interference modifiers listed above.
This power may be kept up.
Time To Use: Varies by Difficulty Level.
The amount of information the adept receives does not allow him to act on it all at once. He must slowly expand his senses outward and gradually interface with it without overwhelming himself. Very Easy difficulty takes one round to come into effect, Moderate takes two rounds and so on. The adept's maximum degree of Perception (Very Difficult) takes a full 4 rounds to activate.
Adepts may attempt to rush the time-to-use limits by "diving headfirst" into the information flow, but this can be dangerous. For every round the adept attempts to rush the time to use, difficulty increases by 2D. On failure, the adept is Stunned for 1D rounds due to information overload, and cannot attempt to re-roll Enhance Senses for an additional 2D rounds after the Stun effect ends.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:46 am Post subject: |
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The one thing some other game systems have that i wish SW did, was when using "enhanced" sight/smell/hearing etc, while it DID grant a lot more info, it also left you vunerable.
Such as enhance smell.. congrats! you are now more supceptable to that airborn poison/toxin
Enhanced hearing. Hope no one lets off a grenade near you otherwise kiss goodbye to your eardrums
Enhanced vision. Same as above for eyesight!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | The one thing some other game systems have that i wish SW did, was when using "enhanced" sight/smell/hearing etc, while it DID grant a lot more info, it also left you vunerable.
Such as enhance smell.. congrats! you are now more supceptable to that airborn poison/toxin
Enhanced hearing. Hope no one lets off a grenade near you otherwise kiss goodbye to your eardrums
Enhanced vision. Same as above for eyesight! |
That'd be simple enough for this power. Just come up with some appropriate criteria for sense-based attacks like a flash-bang grenade and add the character's Sense bonus to damage. Personally, though, my take on Danger Sense is that the character would get some sort of advance notice. A good compromise would be to have a sensory shock count as an overload moment like I described with rushing the power.
Also, I don't think your first example would work; just because you are better able to detect toxins in the air, it doesn't mean you are breathing in more of it; you are just more sensitive to the amount that was there in the first place.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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