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Esoomian
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 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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That's not a bad idea but I liked the idea that calling on the Dark Side made it easier for a moment but harder in the long run because all the penalties are back and now you have that additional Dark Side Point that offers you bonus dice for giving in but adds another penalty if you try to resist.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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I agree it is better to make recovery separate from succeeding at combat, since the Dun Moch practitioner is forgoing physical damage to inflict mental/emotional damage.
I don't know that I would let calling on the Dark Side wipe out the full penalty. Maybe part of the penalty though? I found be fine with results of 16+ forcing the target to take some rash action (flee, attack wildly, toss his light saber down and refuse to fight); but I agree strongly with Esoomian that I prefer DSPs to be based on player choices more than die rolls. There was a very long thread on this topic not long ago so if you want to go down the forcing PC action route you will not be alone.
We see Dark Siders using Dun Moch on each other, so I think one benefit is to reinforce dominance by the superior Dark Sider. Possibly part of the penalty is permanent until the target can successfully defeat the Dun Moch or stand up to them in some other way? |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | We see Dark Siders using Dun Moch on each other, so I think one benefit is to reinforce dominance by the superior Dark Sider. Possibly part of the penalty is permanent until the target can successfully defeat the Dun Moch or stand up to them in some other way? |
I like that idea. Perhaps 'Killing' someone with Dun Moch knocks them out but even after the target has recovered they suffer a 1D penalty in combat against the victor until they can defeat them due to the lasting psychological scars. However this penalty is also ignored if you successfully call on the Dark Side (or perhaps it even becomes a temporary bonus) as it just fuels the target's rage.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | I like that idea. Perhaps 'Killing' someone with Dun Moch knocks them out but even after the target has recovered they suffer a 1D penalty in combat against the victor until they can defeat them due to the lasting psychological scars. However this penalty is also ignored if you successfully call on the Dark Side (or perhaps it even becomes a temporary bonus) as it just fuels the target's rage. |
"Killing" someone with Dun Moch resulting in a permanent 1D penalty due to the psychological scars sounds right. It also provides an incentive for the Dun Moch practitioner to engage such a potentially dangerous activity.
I would also want to allow some method for recovery in the event somebody else kills or defeats the Dark Sider. But I could see this as a long process of meditation or something. Kind of like attonement. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Something like that would work fairly well I think.
Either that or lots and lots of therapy 
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | ...or lots and lots of therapy |
Actually therapy is also a good idea. I just remembered we had a PC who was tortured by a cult of assassins led by Dark Side force users. After that he ended up in long term physical and psychological therapy. He spent about 6-8 months of game time full time in an institution before he made a mostly full recovery. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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How was that handled?
What did the Player do while the other characters were active for that time period?
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | How was that handled?
What did the Player do while the other characters were active for that time period? |
It was a secondary character. So he ran his main character for the initial period. Then the player moved away and did not continue playing. His PCs became NPCs. The secondary character finished his time in the Garden of Contemplation. The main character's fate was, shall we say, a bit less peaceful. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
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I like a lot of the suggestions, but I can see an important point that needs to be addressed. Dun Moch is primarily a psychological attack that either beats the opponent down by demoralizing them or goads them into an attack by infuriating them. Successful strikes for damage may enhance the effectiveness of Dun Moch, but inflicting physical damage is not the core of its effect. Rather than using Lightsaber Combat, I think it should be an opposed Persuasion / Willpower roll, with graduating effects based on who won the roll and by how much.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:34 am Post subject: |
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I'm not so sure I see it that way.
| Wookieepedia wrote: | Dun Möch was a form of combat that used distraction and doubt, usually through taunting, in conjunction with lightsaber battle.
The Sith aimed to completely dominate an opponent's spirit through whatever means possible by employing their own lightsaber combat doctrine. Dun Möch commonly involved spoken taunts, jeers, and jests that exposed the opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses and/or doubts, which had the end result of eroding the opponent's will. Such a thing could be quite deadly, especially against Jedi, since concentration was of vital importance when using the Force. As such, Dun Möch embodied using the Force as a form of psychological warfare. |
It seems to me that Dun Möch is a way of using Lightsaber Combat as a psychological weapon.
I'll agree that it is open to interpretation but I like the simplicity of using Lightsaber Combat rather than having to make persausion rolls and also use Lightsaber Combat, I also feel that better suits the intent of the form and the fact it is a style of combat or Lightsaber form rather than a power in and of it's own right.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | I'm not so sure I see it that way.
| Wookieepedia wrote: | | Dun Möch was a form of combat that used distraction and doubt, usually through taunting, in conjunction with lightsaber battle. |
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Key point here. In conjunction with lightsaber battle, not the lightsaber portion of the battle itself. Dun Moch was supposed to cover the verbal taunting that the Sith used during a lightsaber duel, not a lightsaber technique in and of itself. Even though Darth Maul was obviously taunting and toying with Obi-wan and Qui-gon, the description for Dun Moch says that he wasn't using it because he never said a word over the course of the duel.
EDIT: Correction. The current description of Dun Moch on Wikipedia does allow its use non-verbally, even though the original intent was that it should be a purely verbal psychological attack. If you read the full description on Wookieepedia, it is now an umbrella description for Jedi and Sith psychological warfare in general. However, the point is clear that it is a psychological technique, not a lightsaber one. The idea is to use taunts and the like combined with insights in the Force to break your opponent's concentration and reduce his ability to control the Force by distracting him, or to destroy your opponent's emotional control by either goading him to anger or demoralizing him into despair. Lightsaber combat may be a part of the process, but it is not the sum total of it, or even the core of it.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ...Dun Moch is primarily a psychological attack...Rather than using Lightsaber Combat, I think it should be an opposed Persuasion / Willpower roll, with graduating effects based on who won the roll and by how much. |
Good point on the psychology.
| Wookieepedia wrote: | Dun Möch commonly involved spoken taunts, jeers, and jests that exposed the opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses and/or doubts, which had the end result of eroding the opponent's will.
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Given the description in Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Persuasion skill is not the right skill to "expose hidden, inner weaknesses." Intimidation (or psychology if it was a skill) would seem a better fit. But I also see crmcneill's point that Lightsaber combat does not sound like a verbal/taunting skill. However, in Esoomian's favor, LS combat does use Sense, which seems appropriate for uncovering hidden, inner weaknesses. Thus I sit comfortably on the fence on this one.
One could create a new force skill that uses sense (which I don't particularly favor) or run the skill off of some existing skill or skills, such as LS Combat, Intimidation, or Persuasion. Since I see this as a skill for the Dark Siders, I don't really feel a need to add a new skill and would likely run it off one of the existing skills I mentioned. YMMV. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think the canon supports the idea of this being Force augmented. Most uses of Dun Moch involve things the Jedi sensing his opponent's emotions through the Force and using that insight to taunt his opponent. It still needs to reflect the fact that a taunt is only as good as the eloquence of the taunter, and that should be represented by one of the character's non-Force skills.
Also, this wouldn't necessarily be a Sith-only ability, even though the Sith would be the only one to call it Dun Moch. The Wookieepedia description clearly states that Jedi often used an inverse Dun Moch technique to attempt to persuade Dark Siders to return to the light.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Key point here. In conjunction with lightsaber battle, not the lightsaber portion of the battle itself. Dun Moch was supposed to cover the verbal taunting that the Sith used during a lightsaber duel, not a lightsaber technique in and of itself. Even though Darth Maul was obviously taunting and toying with Obi-wan and Qui-gon, the description for Dun Moch says that he wasn't using it because he never said a word over the course of the duel. |
You viewpoint is completely valid but that's still not how I see it. We could argue the semantics with me saying that if I use a dagger in conjunction with a sword I'm still using melee combat or even something like Can Dun Moch be used without Lightsaber Combat? If not then perhaps it is a component of Lightsaber Combat but I suspect this would simply lead to a long drawn out argument and might even end up with the discussion devolving into sarcasm. I can see how your point of view could be right, I can see how my point of view could be right and I can see flaws in the arguments both of us have presented.
The bottom line is I like the simplicity of keeping it all one roll with no need to bother with MAPs or spreading skills and I'm attracted to the cinematic nature of the practitioner turning his Lightsaber into an extension of his malice taunting his opponent's with painful burns and avoiding their blows with an infuriating fluid grace.
I'm not sure any of us is ever going to be definitively right. Were taking a plot device (a fairly nebulous concept in the first place) and attempting to make it into a game mechanic. We can't actually study Dun Moch and Wookieepedia is user editable so as popular opinion changes of more material is released the 'facts' may well change. Our best bet is to take the idea behind the plot device and use it to make a game mechanic that suits our game style.
I don't like the idea that Dun Moch is persuasion based and possibly requires another force power to maintain, I especially don't like the idea that it may be used to elicit a defined emotional response. People aren't all the same just watching the vastly differing reactions to the earthquake in Christchurch and the earthquake in Japan have shown me that emotional responses can be very different across cultures and the Dun Moch practitioner may not even be the same species as the target. They may have no shared history, culture or language. That is why I chose to design my version with the taunting mechanic encompassed by Lightsaber Combat and have the result be a simple penalty rather than a specific response.
None of my ideas make your ideas wrong and if you like any part of the Dun Moch I describe then feel free to incorporate it into the way you use it.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | We could argue the semantics with me saying that if I use a dagger in conjunction with a sword I'm still using melee combat |
But in that case, you would still face a MAP for using two weapons at once (unless you took some sort of specialization for two-weapon fighting). In the case of Dun Moch combined with a lightsaber fight, you are essentially using two different skills: you are fighting with a lightsaber, and you are using your wiles and Force-gained knowledge to verbally attack your opponent. The two are certainly inter-linked, but they are most definitely not the same skill.
| Quote: | | or even something like Can Dun Moch be used without Lightsaber Combat? |
Yes it could. Technically, this is what Palpatine was using against Luke in ROTJ, even though he himself never used a lightsaber in that movie.
| Quote: | | The bottom line is I like the simplicity of keeping it all one roll with no need to bother with MAPs or spreading skills and I'm attracted to the cinematic nature of the practitioner turning his Lightsaber into an extension of his malice taunting his opponent's with painful burns and avoiding their blows with an infuriating fluid grace. |
I understand your interest in simplicity, but in this case, simplicity would actually side-step MAPs that would be applicable in this situation, as I described above. The broadened description of Dun Moch would certainly include combat where no speaking occurs (ala Darth Maul in E1), but that would be a subset of Dun Moch, not the sum total of it, and in any case, such taunting would also incorporate taunting facial expressions, unnecessary weapon flourishes, deliberately missed attacks, and in general toying with one's opponent (i.e. inflicting less damage than you could, up to an including no damage at all).
I like your idea, but in and of itself, it does not encompass the full scope of Dun Moch; only a small part of it. Wookieepedia is not the best of sources, but it does cite obvious examples in the canon. In the films, Dun Moch can be seen in almost every lightsaber duel, with the Sith taunting the Jedi verbally over the course of their lightsaber battle. The use of physical damage as an aspect of Dun Moch is really only seen in E2, where Dooku uses his saber to inflict minor wounds on Obi-wan, disabling him for a coup de grace before Anakin intervenes. I'm not saying that physical damage shouldn't be an aspect of Dun Moch; I'm just saying that it is not the core of it, or the only facet, and any rule for Dun Moch should reflect all aspects, not just the physical one.
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