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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:08 am Post subject: Sublight Drives: Military vs. Commercial |
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This is an idea that has its roots in various sources, but one that should work well in the SWU.
My idea is that there should be a distinction in power output between military and civilian ships, as well as some other differences. Currently, the RAW on starship movement states that ships traveling at all-out speed travel at 4x their move. My proposal is that commercial sublight drives would have that speed limited to 3x their base move, while military vessels would remain at 4x
Furthermore, I would include a distinction between Ship ID transponders on commercial and military vessels. The RAW states that a ship's ID transponder is intricately linked with the engine, and cannot be deactivated without damaging the engine (or something to that effect). My theory is that military drives, in addition to being faster at all-out, would also have the option of allowing the ID transponder to be deactivated if necessary, as a military vessel may sometimes have a need for anonymity.
Naturally, with this rule, military drives would be all the rage with the smuggling crowd, so I would also include high-level restrictions on availability, and make the installation and use of a military drive in a civilian vessel a Code Two violation (5-30 years in prison, a fine of up to 10,000 credits and confiscation of the vessel and the drive). On top of that, a military drive would be easily recognizable as such from a visual inspection, such as the type that commonly occurs during a customs boarding check.
I'm also considering an option for Advanced Drives, which would top out at five times the basic speed code, and would be used for military craft like the A-Wing or the TIE Interceptor, but could also be found with special permits on competitive racing starships (subject to permitting and regular inspections, naturally).
Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:59 am Post subject: |
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I like it. BUT i might have 4 levels..
Standard civ - x3 max
Standard mil - x4 max
high grade civ (eg courier ships) x5
High grade mil - x6
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I like it. BUT i might have 4 levels..
Standard civ - x3 max
Standard mil - x4 max
high grade civ (eg courier ships) x5
High grade mil - x6 |
I think a better compromise would be to always have Military drives be one step above their civilian equivalents, so you would have something like this:
Standard Civilian - 3x max
Standard Military / High-Speed Civilian - 4x max
High-Speed Military / Competition Civilian - 5x max
Experimental Military - 6x max
All the Civilian drives would still have the mandatory transponder installed, while all the Military would be able to toggle theirs on or off. Competition Civilian would be still have the ID transponder, and would be restricted solely to use within the course boundaries of competitive events.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, the multiplier is just a mechanical way of handling movement. It has nothing to do with the ship itself.
You should go after the Space stat instead. If you want to make the military ship easier to control at higher movement speeds, go for maneuverability. Working with the mulitplier just seems like a roundabout way of fixing the issue of military ships speed vs civilians.
Also, theres nothing that actually makes military engines go faster, like the 40K Orks 'Go fasta Red' idea. Its just that the different uses the engines have means that different resources are availible. On top of this different engine ratings perhaps should have different availabilities. A Space 10 engine for a transport sized ship should perhaps have 3,R or X. Hmm, come th think of it, thats now how things work in my games. Given the GG6 costs for high performance Ion engines (IIRC) I cant really see this being a problem. Perhaps its logical to make a gunship Space 8, but most businesses wouldnt put that into a Transport, and if they did the Empire would probably call it a 'disguised' warship anyhow.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | You should go after the Space stat instead. If you want to make the military ship easier to control at higher movement speeds, go for maneuverability. Working with the mulitplier just seems like a roundabout way of fixing the issue of military ships speed vs civilians.
Also, theres nothing that actually makes military engines go faster, like the 40K Orks 'Go fasta Red' idea. Its just that the different uses the engines have means that different resources are availible. On top of this different engine ratings perhaps should have different availabilities. A Space 10 engine for a transport sized ship should perhaps have 3,R or X. Hmm, come th think of it, thats now how things work in my games. Given the GG6 costs for high performance Ion engines (IIRC) I cant really see this being a problem. Perhaps its logical to make a gunship Space 8, but most businesses wouldnt put that into a Transport, and if they did the Empire would probably call it a 'disguised' warship anyhow. |
Well, it isn't just about speed. It's also about having the ID transponder that you can toggle on or off, which can be a very nice advantage if you are willing to take the chance of being caught with a Military-grade drive. The idea itself is based on the All Ahead Full special order from Battlefleet Gothic, where freighters and Ork ships only added +3D6 to their Speed, while most warships added +4D6, and some up-engined versions added +5D6. Personally, I would rather use the 1E Tramp Freighter rules than the 2E version; the generic engine types, based purely on speed, seem much more usable in game.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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The speed multipliers would work, I would ditch the idea of having the military drives be able to toggle on and off the ID. If anything, a military would NOT make it easy to disable that, as they would want to know which ships, if any, go rogue on them. Would you rather have a civvie ship with weapons hunting you that you can't identify or a military ship with weapons hunting you that you can't identify?
Don't make it easier to shut that ID transponder off, it takes away something for the PCs to shoot for and removes so many options for later in the game. "I remember you...you're ship blasted the liner I served on. The captain was able to ID your ship before he died. I swore to avenge my fallen shipmates that day!"
If they can just "switch off" and attack with impunity, it removes a whole facet of possibly getting caught and having to avoid certain places because they raided one too many ships en route to a trade port. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | You should go after the Space stat instead. If you want to make the military ship easier to control at higher movement speeds, go for maneuverability. Working with the mulitplier just seems like a roundabout way of fixing the issue of military ships speed vs civilians.
Also, theres nothing that actually makes military engines go faster, like the 40K Orks 'Go fasta Red' idea. Its just that the different uses the engines have means that different resources are availible. On top of this different engine ratings perhaps should have different availabilities. A Space 10 engine for a transport sized ship should perhaps have 3,R or X. Hmm, come th think of it, thats now how things work in my games. Given the GG6 costs for high performance Ion engines (IIRC) I cant really see this being a problem. Perhaps its logical to make a gunship Space 8, but most businesses wouldnt put that into a Transport, and if they did the Empire would probably call it a 'disguised' warship anyhow. |
Well, it isn't just about speed. It's also about having the ID transponder that you can toggle on or off, which can be a very nice advantage if you are willing to take the chance of being caught with a Military-grade drive. The idea itself is based on the All Ahead Full special order from Battlefleet Gothic, where freighters and Ork ships only added +3D6 to their Speed, while most warships added +4D6, and some up-engined versions added +5D6. Personally, I would rather use the 1E Tramp Freighter rules than the 2E version; the generic engine types, based purely on speed, seem much more usable in game. |
I have always felt that the 'official' explenation about transponders was only to make it more difficulty to change the ID of ships. But if we accept that the transponer ID is part of the engines energy signature then turning it off might not be an issue. However, masking it or altering the emmission should be fairly easy, if illegal. Isnt there rules for this in Crackens?
One should definitely keep RPG and Tabletop rules apart. RPGs mostly tries to simulate an 'in game' reality which most of the time must follow real physics (in universe gizmos and abnormalities aside). A tabletop game, especially if they dont take themselves too serious like most GW games, does not need this level of realism. On top of this is the fact that the scale of the game means that tabletop games are much more abstract in its mechanics. This often leads to funny results when you port things between the game systems. If you are familiar with WFB and WFRP you can just look at Ogres. In WFB it might seem logical that they have 3 attacks but at the same time are rather slow, in the RPG it makes no sense. On the other hand, in the RPG they are laughable weak for 10 feet heavily muscled humanoids...
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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So hows about
Civ grade A ion drives. Max speed SR5, 2 F availability
Civ Grade B drives, Max speed 7 (couriers), 2R/F availability
Civ Grade C drives, Max speed 9 (speed racers, 3R/F availability
Mil Grade A drives, Max speed 6, 2R availability
Mil Grade B drives (most ties) Sr 9, 3R availability
Mil Grade C drives (Tie interceptors/advanced) Sr 12, 3X availability
Experimental grade mil drive D class, SR13 (defenders), 4X availability,
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I have always felt that the 'official' explenation about transponders was only to make it more difficulty to change the ID of ships. But if we accept that the transponer ID is part of the engines energy signature then turning it off might not be an issue. However, masking it or altering the emmission should be fairly easy, if illegal. Isnt there rules for this in Crackens? |
There is, but those rules are very specific that transponders can't be shut off, only masked. However, I have come across several references in the canon to ships that are not transmitting an ID signature, which flies in the face of the existing rule in the canon. I was looking for a theory that resolved that point, as well as an opportunity to add in a useful mechanic. By making it a facet of military drives only, this allows the ship advantages in stealth (as it is able to shut off an active transmitter that would register on passive sensors) and deniability (as it is able to conceal its identity and affiliation to a degree).
| Quote: | | One should definitely keep RPG and Tabletop rules apart. RPGs mostly tries to simulate an 'in game' reality which most of the time must follow real physics (in universe gizmos and abnormalities aside). A tabletop game, especially if they dont take themselves too serious like most GW games, does not need this level of realism. On top of this is the fact that the scale of the game means that tabletop games are much more abstract in its mechanics. This often leads to funny results when you port things between the game systems. If you are familiar with WFB and WFRP you can just look at Ogres. In WFB it might seem logical that they have 3 attacks but at the same time are rather slow, in the RPG it makes no sense. On the other hand, in the RPG they are laughable weak for 10 feet heavily muscled humanoids... |
I don't agree. There are obviously some mechanics that don't work, but there are other that can be applied to great effect, especially if the person doing the conversion is knowledgeable of both systems. I have several modified rules from the original WH40K Rogue Trader sourcebook that work very well for combat situations in the SWU.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps with a high enough tech roll PLUS the mil's copy of full schematics, it can be done. OR they just purchased it that way, and it is not readily available (let alone known about) to the general public.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps with a high enough tech roll PLUS the mil's copy of full schematics, it can be done. OR they just purchased it that way, and it is not readily available (let alone known about) to the general public. |
That would work, too. If you were willing to pay a high enough price, you could probably get something just like it on the black market at Starforge Shipyards, or from Doc out in the Corporate Sector (or any of a dozen other unknown Fringe Techs who might be capable of doing the work). For the right price, they might even be able to give you military grade components that will pass a customs inspection.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:35 am Post subject: |
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That's the thing. Something like this i would see as either
A) never being mass produced or made in enough quantities for it to even make it to where you could purchase it on the black market, or
B) so damn pricy only a rare few rich recluses would even be able to afford it.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | That's the thing. Something like this i would see as either
A) never being mass produced or made in enough quantities for it to even make it to where you could purchase it on the black market, or
B) so d*mn pricy only a rare few rich recluses would even be able to afford it. |
Seems fair. It might be the sort of situation where the engine production facilities are actually on site with the starship manufacturing facility, to insure greater security, with anti-tamper systems to insure that drive systems couldn't be salvaged from damaged craft. I realize that things are a lot different in the SWU than real life, but in either universe, there is a huge difference between knowing that a technology exists and being able to get a hold of it.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | However, I have come across several references in the canon to ships that are not transmitting an ID signature, which flies in the face of the existing rule in the canon. . |
Canon inconsistencies, that cannot be! 
Yeah, I have read passages too that seem to indicate that a transponder is a separate device sending out the ID signal. This is of course easier to 'turn off'. Even if we stick to the earlier official rules, there should be no problem to manufacture a 'non id' engine, onto which a id transmitter is added. This could be for military ships (official/sanctioned forces) only.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | So hows about
Civ grade A ion drives. Max speed SR5, 2 F availability
Civ Grade B drives, Max speed 7 (couriers), 2R/F availability
Civ Grade C drives, Max speed 9 (speed racers, 3R/F availability
Mil Grade A drives, Max speed 6, 2R availability
Mil Grade B drives (most ties) Sr 9, 3R availability
Mil Grade C drives (Tie interceptors/advanced) Sr 12, 3X availability
Experimental grade mil drive D class, SR13 (defenders), 4X availability, |
Looks good, but it seems a little too specific to me. I was mostly just looking for ways to classify existing engines into general categories, based on their speed rating.
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