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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | All this excessive talk about canon evidence do nothing to move my shorts so I'll leave you guys to it. :/ |
If you are looking for something on the internet that moves your shorts, there are a lot of other websites available. 
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ...but WEG didn't even do a very good job of making a realistic rule for Force Lightning based on the original movies. |
Basically the only thing that is missing is 'my' Inflict Pain effect...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | ...but WEG didn't even do a very good job of making a realistic rule for Force Lightning based on the original movies. |
Basically the only thing that is missing is 'my' Inflict Pain effect... |
That's just one facet. Inflict Pain is a pretty obvious one, because Luke is very clearly in pain even during the little respites that the Emperor gives him. The other obvious error is when you compare the numbers. Even with Force Lightning capped at half of the user's Alter dice, there is no mention of a way for the FL user to control the damage level. That means that, according to the WEG rules, every time Palpatine was hitting Luke with Force Lightning, he was inflicting full 7D damage against Luke's 3D Strength. Luke should've been charred to a crisp, yet he was only temporarily immobilized.
Another thing that gets me is range. FL seems to be a relatively short-range power, yet there is no mention of a range limit. This seems odd to me, especially when WEG capped the range of Life Detection at 10 meters, regardless of the relative power level of the power user. Ultimately, to me, the RAW for Force Lighting almost seems like something that someone pushed back and pushed back until just before the publishing deadline, then finally threw something together and said "here, this is how it works."
IMO, range for certain Force powers, like Force Lightning and Life Detection, should be based on the skill level of the person using the power. Specifically, the character would use their Force skill dice as the base. For instance, say a character had a Sense of 7D+2. Rather than restrict that character's detection range to 10 meters, the character would multiply their Sense Dice number by 10 and the pip number by 3 (7D+2 = {7x10}+{2x3} = 76 meters). An offensive energy attack like Force Lightning would receive a similar range by using Alter Dice, then treated like a Ranged weapon, with S/M/L being set at 10%-25%/50%/100%.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | ...but WEG didn't even do a very good job of making a realistic rule for Force Lightning based on the original movies. |
Basically the only thing that is missing is 'my' Inflict Pain effect... |
I'm totally with you.
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | ...but WEG didn't even do a very good job of making a realistic rule for Force Lightning based on the original movies. |
Basically the only thing that is missing is 'my' Inflict Pain effect... |
That's just one facet. Inflict Pain is a pretty obvious one, because Luke is very clearly in pain even during the little respites that the Emperor gives him. The other obvious error is when you compare the numbers. Even with Force Lightning capped at half of the user's Alter dice, there is no mention of a way for the FL user to control the damage level. That means that, according to the WEG rules, every time Palpatine was hitting Luke with Force Lightning, he was inflicting full 7D damage against Luke's 3D Strength. Luke should've been charred to a crisp, yet he was only temporarily immobilized.
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He was obviously pulling his punches. Later in the scene he says 'now, you die' or something to that effect (when luke refuses to join him), which seems to indicate that he formerly just played with Luke. ATM I cant recall if theres such a thing as doing less damage by the RAW though. However, I assume you can anyway, just activating a bunch of other force powers (lifting those 5 bolts lying in the corner is 5 extra actions  ).
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | Another thing that gets me is range. FL seems to be a relatively short-range power, yet there is no mention of a range limit. This seems odd to me, especially when WEG capped the range of Life Detection at 10 meters, regardless of the relative power level of the power user. Ultimately, to me, the RAW for Force Lighting almost seems like something that someone pushed back and pushed back until just before the publishing deadline, then finally threw something together and said "here, this is how it works."
IMO, range for certain Force powers, like Force Lightning and Life Detection, should be based on the skill level of the person using the power. Specifically, the character would use their Force skill dice as the base. For instance, say a character had a Sense of 7D+2. Rather than restrict that character's detection range to 10 meters, the character would multiply their Sense Dice number by 10 and the pip number by 3 (7D+2 = {7x10}+{2x3} = 76 meters). An offensive energy attack like Force Lightning would receive a similar range by using Alter Dice, then treated like a Ranged weapon, with S/M/L being set at 10%-25%/50%/100%. |
For Life Sense, just add +5 meters for each 5 over the diff. you roll when activating. I think this is how I did it or someting similar.
I always thought that force lightning should be much more powerful in damage/effect, but more limited in range. Perhaps also have an area of effect instead of a single target. This would make it sufficiently different from other powers like Telekinetic Kill.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | For Life Sense, just add +5 meters for each 5 over the diff. you roll when activating. I think this is how I did it or someting similar. |
You could just simplify the calculation and add a meter for every point your roll was over the difficulty.
| Quote: | | I always thought that force lightning should be much more powerful in damage/effect, but more limited in range. Perhaps also have an area of effect instead of a single target. This would make it sufficiently different from other powers like Telekinetic Kill. |
I agree. In the canon, it seems to be almost point-effect, in the sense that it only hits the one target. I've envisioned other varieties, like:
Bolt - Standard Force Lightning. Affects one target
Chain - As standard Force Lightning, but arcs through the target to affect others. This can be very useful, as it would allow the FL user to "bank his shots" off another living being and hit a target that was out of line-of-sight.
Cone - Effects everything within a given arc, but at the cost of reduced range.
Sphere - Emanates from the character in all directions, out to a short range.
Ball - Line of sight discharge with very long range, but can deliver the full range of effects (stun, pain, and injury/death). This would cover Jerek's Force Destruction power and fold it in as an extension of Force Lightning.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | What.. FL then TK? By the rpg rules, that couldn't happen. |
According to the rules force lightning does not include telekinesis. |
Ah, but the rules should reflect the canon, and the canon shows that Force Lightning includes a TK effect (See Dooku vs. Anakin in E2). In all fairness, the movie was produced long after the rules for Force Lightning were put in place by WEG, but WEG didn't even do a very good job of making a realistic rule for Force Lightning based on the original movies. |
I think both of those examples in the prequal trilogy were more screenwrighters "Creative licensing". I certainly don't remember much of a "TK" Effect when Luke got it from palpy..
| Quote: | | IMO, using existing rules, I think Sidious used Force Lightning on Windu, who was able to parry the lightning back at Sidious and inflict lethal damage |
Which is something else to worry about as by the RAW there is no parry back force lightning.
| Quote: | Another thing that gets me is range. FL seems to be a relatively short-range power, yet there is no mention of a range limit. This seems odd to me, especially when WEG capped the range of Life Detection at 10 meters, regardless of the relative power level of the power user. Ultimately, to me, the RAW for Force Lighting almost seems like something that someone pushed back and pushed back until just before the publishing deadline, then finally threw something together and said "here, this is how it works."
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Perhaps it could have a range of 1M per 2 pips of the user.
| Quote: | He was obviously pulling his punches. Later in the scene he says 'now, you die' or something to that effect (when luke refuses to join him), which seems to indicate that he formerly just played with Luke. ATM I cant recall if theres such a thing as doing less damage by the RAW though. However, I assume you can anyway, just activating a bunch of other force powers (lifting those 5 bolts lying in the corner is 5 extra actions ).
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As i mentioned earlier, there is NOTHING in the RAW that specifies you have to use your full dice allowance.. Just hold some dice out.
| Quote: | Chain - As standard Force Lightning, but arcs through the target to affect others. This can be very useful, as it would allow the FL user to "bank his shots" off another living being and hit a target that was out of line-of-sight.
Cone - Effects everything within a given arc, but at the cost of reduced range.
Sphere - Emanates from the character in all directions, out to a short range.
Ball - Line of sight discharge with very long range, but can deliver the full range of effects (stun, pain, and injury/death). This would cover Jerek's Force Destruction power and fold it in as an extension of Force Lightning.
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I could maybe see these as sith add ons for high up sith lords, who already are masters of FL (Basic)..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I think both of those examples in the prequal trilogy were more screenwrighters "Creative licensing". I certainly don't remember much of a "TK" Effect when Luke got it from palpy.. |
Maybe its something that can be modulated, sort of like your original idea on using the difference between the character and the victim's Force dice level to determine the TK effect.
| Quote: | | Which is something else to worry about as by the RAW there is no parry back force lightning. |
That's true. When Obi-wan parried Dooku's Force Lightning there was no redirection; the lightning just stopped at the blade. Perhaps its only something that happens within melee combat range. That was how close Mace was when this effect occurred, so maybe if you are within a couple meters, the proximity to the source without something to ground out on causes the lightning to feed back onto its user at full strength.
| Quote: | | Perhaps it could have a range of 1M per 2 pips of the user. |
I'd prefer a mechanic that didn't involve calculating the total pips to get the number, with a result more directly derived from the listed stats.
| Quote: | | As i mentioned earlier, there is NOTHING in the RAW that specifies you have to use your full dice allowance.. Just hold some dice out. |
That's true. I just prefer a more explicit rule that says that the Force user can specify the degree of damage he inflicts.
| Quote: | | I could maybe see these as sith add ons for high up sith lords, who already are masters of FL (Basic).. |
I agree. These would be sub-powers under Force Lightning on a Force Power Tree
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:05 am Post subject: |
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It sounds more and more like the d20 starwars system, or something akin to 4th ed dnd would be more to your liking, with having everything spelled out...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | It sounds more and more like the d20 starwars system, or something akin to 4th ed dnd would be more to your liking, with having everything spelled out... |
Didn't really like the look of D&D 4th, but it is kinda nice to have the parameters of various thing spelled out.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:50 am Post subject: |
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And some of us prefer to not have everything spelled out.. YMMV
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | And some of us prefer to not have everything spelled out.. YMMV |
To each their own.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | And some of us prefer to not have everything spelled out.. YMMV |
I'm not familiar with all the new leet speech of today. You move my what?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | And some of us prefer to not have everything spelled out.. YMMV |
I'm not familiar with all the new leet speech of today. You move my what? |
Your Mileage May Vary. I had to look it up too.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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