The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Lightsabers again
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Lightsabers again Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:54 am    Post subject: Lightsabers again Reply with quote

I'll just leave this here for your persual. This is how I handle lightsabers in my games. Warning for canon purists - contains high concentration of decidedly non-canon material and ideas.
Make of this what you will.

A lightsaber blade is “coherent energy,” using the same basic technology as a forcefield. It has no physical edge for cutting, and therefore never dulls or loses its cutting power (unless damaged or improperly calibrated). The blade may also cut in any direction. When the blade hits an object, it cuts through solid matter by breaking molecular bonds, disintegrating a small portion of the target (the width of the "true" blade, which is less than a millimeter – the corona of light is just a side effect, the blade itself is invisible). Cutting generates heat, though the blade itself gives off only a slight warmth. When cut, flesh will usually cauterize instantly, and metals will melt under prolonged contact with a lightsaber blade. Easily flammable materials, like paper or dry wood, have a high chance of catching fire when cut, but flammable gasses will not be lighted by a lightsaber simply swinging through them, unless highly unstable. A standard lightsaber is fully operable when submerged in liquid, but will need additional water-proofing to withstand pressures at depths greater than about 50m. Liquid is dense enough that a blade submerged will constantly "cut" through it and so almost instantly start to boil the medium around it with waste heat. If the liquid is flammable or combustible this will set it off. The reaction with the surrounding liquid will diminish the cutting power of a submerged lightsaber (the liquid essentially acting as a layer of armor the blade must first cut through to reach the target), unless the blade is stabbed deep into the target.

The lightsaber is a difficult weapon to use because the blade has no mass. This makes the blade's exact position difficult to judge for the user, especially when not looking at it. Without mass, it should also have no weight or resistance when the weapon is swung. A lightsaber can cut through any known matter, given enough time and ability of the wielder, but when the blade comes into contact with matter, there is resistance to the weapon’s movement. The energy blade of each lightsaber has a unique frequency, which determines the weapon’s “feel” - how it handles when contacting an object or another lightsaber blade. Untrained or inexperienced people are unable to anticipate or compensate for the difference. If the user is unprepared, the blade can literally bounce back from the object it strikes. All that means that in the hands of an untrained person the blade is just as dangerous to the wielder as to his surroundings. The blade's frequency may be calculated from the pitch of its hum and its color with the use of proper audio and chromatic sensors, and may be tuned by adjusting the collimator crystal's cut and alignment in the mirror chamber, and the construction of the chamber itself.

There exist two known materials resistant – but still not invulnerable - to the lightsaber. They are Cortosis and Mandalorian Steel. Cortosis is a naturally occurring but very rare mineral. Pure Cortosis is ill suited to producing weapons or armor, being much too brittle. However, other materials may be alloyed or composited with it, by reinforcing them with a Cortosis "weave". Cortosis-reinforced materials are quite resistant to being cut with a lightsaber, and to damage by directed energy in general. The resistance is limited however. The Cortosis weave is quickly damaged by repeated or prolonged contact with a lightsaber or other such energy source. In a way, the weave serves as a "crash cage" – Cortosis properties allow it to absorb and dissipate the attack by breaking up, leaving the object it is protecting intact. Once the weave looses it's coherence, the material it is alloyed with reverts to its standard properties. The rate at which the Cortosis weave will deteriorate is somewhat unpredictable. The material known traditionally as Mandalorian Steel is a metal alloy of incredible strength and durability created by the material science of the First Era Mandalorian Empire and used widely in construction of their weapons and armor. In modern times the secret of its forging is lost. No research has to date succeeded in replicating it, the only source of Mandalorian Steel are surviving First Era artifacts. The material is still vulnerable to a lightsaber, it is however vastly more resistant than any other known material, natural or synthetic. Using a lightsaber, one can carve an opening big enough for a man to step through in a typical blast door in under 20 seconds. Should the door be reinforced with Cortosis, the same would take about 2-3 minutes. The same thickness door forged of Mandalorian Steel would require about 30 minutes of work. Old rumors and legends hint that ancient Sith alchemy was also able to produce materials resistant, or even outright immune, to lightsabers. If true however, such knowledge seems lost in the modern age.

Lightsabers calibrated improperly, but still well enough to form a blade, loose cutting power, to the point where the blade becomes a blunt, impact weapon, incapable, with its lack of mass, of inflicting almost any true harm. This phenomenon is exploited to produce "safe", training versions of lightsabers. Such a lightsaber is still fully capable of blocking blaster bolts, however deflecting them with precision is much more difficult. A badly calibrated lightsaber will not form a blade at all, at most emitting from the blade aperture a colored light comparable to a weak flashlight, and maybe some sparks. It may burn out, shattering and/or melting the crystal and mirror chamber. Disastrously badly calibrated lightsabers, as lightsabers with seriously flawed or cracked collimator crystals or damaged mirror chambers, usually instantly burn out, and are not unknown to explode upon activation.

Since the lightsaber blade is made of energy and not matter, it is invulnerable as long as its energy source remains constant. Most small objects will bounce off of the blade, though very small objects may melt or vaporize either instantly or after deflecting a short distance. Larger objects will either be cut or deflected, depending on the type of object and the skill of the lightsaber wielder. Other forms of coherent energy, having no molecular structure, can not be damaged or destroyed by a lightsaber, but will be stopped or repelled. Blaster bolts fall into this category- generally, they are not destroyed by a lightsaber, but reflect from the blade. A lightsaber blade will be stopped by another lightsaber blade or by a forcefield.

The colors of most lightsabers come from chromatic aberrations, imperfections, in either the collimator crystal, the mirror chamber it is encased within, or both; the odds of both being, by accident, absolutely perfect in the same saber are ravishingly small. Should it happen, the lightsaber's beam will be a pure, brilliant white, without the characteristic colored edge. As the construction of the chamber and the cutting and polishing of the crystal are both activities in which the builder is assumed to be guided by the Force, the color one comes up with on a first attempt is a special thing - an omen, perhaps, of things to come. "Blunt", training lightsabers are of muted, pale, pastel colors.

The light and sound produced by an activated lightsaber makes it hard to be stealthy when carrying one, especially in the dark. The blade produces light about equivalent to a very bright candle or chemical glow-tube. When fighting in the dark, this helps the wielder see, but also makes him easier to be seen by opponents. Individual weapons can be somewhat brighter or dimmer and/or louder or quieter than others, but there is no way to significantly dim or muffle a lightsaber. Theoretically, taking into account the way blade colors are produced, it is possible to build a lightsaber giving light in the ultraviolet or infrared band of the spectrum, but such calibrations fall far outside the proper calibration range to form even a "blunt" blade.

The Jedi always tightly controlled the knowledge of lightsaber construction. Over the centuries, many legends arose surrounding the workings and construction of lightsabers, sometimes actively encouraged by the Jedi themselves to better deter anyone from trying to produce one on their own. It was said for example, that the builder had to be Force-sensitive to even attempt building a lghtsaber, as it’s workings were so complicated that without guidance from the Force nobody could hope to succeed. Another common myth is that the collimating crystal had to be "infused", "charged" or "imbued" with the power of the Force to make it possible for the lightsaber to work. Those, and all other, similar myths are just that – myths. Beyond the knowledge required to properly put it together, there is nothing much special in the lightsaber's construction at all. Certainly nothing mystical. In fact, one can usually find all the materials and tools necessary to build a lightsaber in any good modern vehicle, droid, starship or weapon mechanic's shop.

A lightsaber may be powered by any standard stacked superconductor or phased crystal powercell constructed to fit in the hilt. In emergencies it could even be powered from an external source connected with a power cable. A powercell of capacity comparable to a standard blaster pistol magazine is able to power a lightsaber for about one year of continuous operation, with constant moderate use. The same lightsaber simply left on but not used would run out of power after about ten years. This is possible because of the blade's close to 100% self-enclosed nature. The blade is in fact not a straight beam stopped at set length, but instead double-backs on itself in a flat inside-outside flowing loop. This ingenious design means that, when simply switched-on and not used to cut or deflect anything, most of the energy used to form the blade is absorbed back, with only slight loss to mechanism's resistance and emitted heat and light. The loss of energy increases noticeably when the blade is used to cut or deflect objects, but it still takes many thousands of cuts or parries to deplete the powercell. In fact, a lightsaber left on for so long would be in danger of failure from internal component stress and heat build-up long before it would make any significant drain on it's power source.

The blade is controlled with a simple on/off switch. A common addition is a "dead-man" safety switch – a pressure sensor in the handle that deactivates the lightsaber automatically when the user lets go of it. It is usually built so that it may be disengaged, in case the user wants to throw the lightsaber for example. Otherwise the user must keep the pressure on the handle through telekinesis. A less common modification is an internal switch – the on/off control is wholly internal, with no external access. This requires the use of telekinesis to activate and deactivate the blade, ensuring no-one not Force-sensitive can use the lightsaber without opening up the casing, which is time-consuming. The on/off control may also be combined with a security mechanism, preventing the activation of the lightsaber by an unauthorized user. The verification mechanism usually takes the form of a biometric or genetic scanner in the handle (must be able to make contact with skin), but can also be a puzzle requiring the right setting of several switches, although the latter is more time consuming on activation. Most commonly if the user authentication is failed the blade will simply not activate. It is however possible to build a trap into the lightsaber, activated by an unauthorized access attempt. Possible traps include an alarm beacon alerting the authorized user, a non-injuring self-destruct mechanism, an electroshock, an explosive charge, and spring-loaded blades or spikes or even poisoned needles. Traps aimed at harming the unauthorized user are strongly frowned upon by the Jedi and quite popular with the Sith.

The lightsaber blade may be tuned for frequency and color, as discussed above, and also length. Such tuning must be normally done in a workshop, by disassembling the weapon and modifying it's collimator crystal cut and mirror chamber construction. However, a limited value of tuning may be obtained simply by adjusting the position of the collimator crystal within the mirror chamber, which may be done by a built-in, externally controlled mechanism, should such be included in the lightsaber's construction. For color, such tuning enables the blade to span at most two chromatic bands, e.g. from yellow to red, with all shades in between. The possible effect on length is greatest, allowing the blade to vary by up to 50cm between shortest and longest extensions.

The lightsaber body can be built from almost any material and in varying styles just as long as the casing can securely and solidly hold all the required components. For simplicity the casing is usually made of metals, synthetics, or ceramics, but possible non-standard materials include transparisteel, precious metals, crystal, and even some types of stone or wood. It is possible to build the lightsaber durable enough for the body to be used as a bludgeoning weapon on its own, a kind of mace or maul, which may even be spiked. Naturally, this is far more popular with the Sith than the Jedi.

Some game mechanics:
Hitting with a blaster bolt reflected from a "blunt" saber – 2D penalty;
Saber swung under water – 1D penalty to damage;
Sneaking/hiding with an activated saber – 2D penalty, 4D if complete darkness;
Light from a saber – lowers penalties for poor lighting by 2D, for user and opponent;
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Esoomian
High Admiral
High Admiral


Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the work you've done here, particularly the interaction with physical objects.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.

Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see too much here that should disturb purists, or perhaps I'm not as much a purist as I think.

I do, however, have only one objection to you using the phrase "blunt saber." It made me go and youtube the scene with Jay and Silent Bob where Mark Hamil showed up. Smile I'd post a link here, but it has naughty words, and I'm not sure how well that works with the forum rules.
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I really should have said earlier, I really can't claim all, or even most, of the credit for this material. A lot of this is borrowed, sometimes copied verbatim, from other sources. I just edited, added a bit and polished it up to fit into my unified vision. No disrespect is ment - I'm just notoriusly lousy with keeping notes on the sources I borrow from. So if someone recognizes their own work in there, step forward and claim the credit due, and please accept my apologies for using it without permision and my thanks for the inspiration.

As for canonicity and possible purist complaints. Well, one of my main goals in all this was to kill dead the idea, that the lightsaber is what, in my perception, amounts to a D&D magic item. No, its not enchanted or imbued with the force to bond with it's creator. Yes, it may very well become an extension of the user - but that will happen through hard training and experience, not sorcery. And no, you don't need the Force to even build one. You most certainly don't need a special Force Power to do it. Any mechanic moderately competent with forcefields and power menagment systems could do it in a couple days, should he be told how. No offense ment, if you like the idea of the lightsaber being a mystical artifact, then more power to you. I personally can't abide that - it just makes me want to grind my teeth for some reason. No idea why, really.
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon The Lion wrote:
No, its not enchanted or imbued with the force to bond with it's creator. Yes, it may very well become an extension of the user - but that will happen through hard training and experience, not sorcery. And no, you don't need the Force to even build one. You most certainly don't need a special Force Power to do it. Any mechanic moderately competent with forcefields and power menagment systems could do it in a couple days, should he be told how. No offense ment, if you like the idea of the lightsaber being a mystical artifact, then more power to you. I personally can't abide that - it just makes me want to grind my teeth for some reason. No idea why, really.


I never did much like that idea. I think the first time I'd actually heard of it was in 1998 or 1999, though I don't know exactly when it made it into the canon.
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Leon The Lion wrote:
No, its not enchanted or imbued with the force to bond with it's creator. Yes, it may very well become an extension of the user - but that will happen through hard training and experience, not sorcery. And no, you don't need the Force to even build one. You most certainly don't need a special Force Power to do it. Any mechanic moderately competent with forcefields and power menagment systems could do it in a couple days, should he be told how. No offense ment, if you like the idea of the lightsaber being a mystical artifact, then more power to you. I personally can't abide that - it just makes me want to grind my teeth for some reason. No idea why, really.


I never did much like that idea. I think the first time I'd actually heard of it was in 1998 or 1999, though I don't know exactly when it made it into the canon.


My theory was always that a Jedi using the Force to construct something personal like a lightsaber imbued the saber with certain advantages that come with extremely fine craftsmanship, such as high reliability, long term endurance for internal parts and pieces, etc. A standard mass-produced blaster left on the floor for 100+ years would rust, the energy would slowly degrade in the power cell, the blaster gas would evaporate from the clip, and a dozen other little things would happen to render the weapon useless.

A lightsaber, on the other hand, because it was crafted with enhanced senses and the intuitive guidance of the Force, would be far more durable, and could potentially be fully functional even after having been left in the same condition as the blaster. IMO, comparing a lightsaber constructed by a Jedi to a lightsaber constructed by some engineer in a lab would be like comparing a Mercedes Benz to a Ford Tempo. The Jedi's saber is a masterpiece of engineering, constructed by a being who can focus his senses down to near microscopic perception levels, and can call upon the Force to boost his technical skills. A lightsaber produced by a "normal" is just not in its class. It might work, but anyone with a choice would take the Jedi's saber over the engineer's.

However, I do think that a Jedi would imbue the lightsaber with something of himself, if by nothing more than constant and familiar use of an item that was so intensely personal to them. Postcognition is available as a Force power that allows a Jedi to get impressions off of objects, so perhaps a lightsaber would actually provide bonuses for another Jedi with Postcognition to get readings off of it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:32 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a related note, there is something else I have been considering regarding lightsabers. It's a rather telling statement on the state of the EU that I find this aspect presented best in a Fan Fic:

Quote:
All blades had a slight pull, a 'cant', caused by the resonant vibration unique to that crystal, which gave the blade its weight- its 'heft'. Some were smooth and light, which made them easy to handle and fast through the air. But with no heft to the blade, all momentum must come from the wielder, making the more complex moves easy to achieve, but robbing them of any power.

'Heavy' blades had a low resonance and a more marked cant, requiring far more of the wielder in order to control them. They enforced a different fighting style, since constant movement was required in order to control the gyroscopic cant. But the trade-off against these difficult, heavy blades was that their momentum gave them power through the most complex moves, making them far more deadly- if one could land a precise blow.

All blades were in essence a trade-off between the ease and speed of a slight cant and the difficult to control, deadly power of a hefty blade. Her master's blade, like Mara's, was light and fast, enhancing speed and requiring less of the wielder in terms of commitment to training, applied expertise and dexterity. Vader's blade was very much like his son's, leading Mara to wonder momentarily at the spectacle which the duel that she knew had taken place between the two would have presented.

The pitch on this blade was very low, almost like a pulse, and she felt her own heartbeat quicken in empathetic response. The kinetic cant pulled against her, so marked that she had to fight just to hold it still, as if it were alive in her hand. Yet when she moved it in a slow figure-of-eight it almost took the movement from her, pulling her on it in its eagerness to move.

It was a unique, kinetic blade, tuned far more towards offensive than defensive moves- defence required speed of reaction; attack required power. This blade was designed to take the initiative, to press the attack home.

A Sith blade.


What I'm proposing is that a Jedi's lightsaber can be designed during construction with an emphasis on either attack or defense, or at balance. At the time of construction, a Jedi may select the "cant" of his blade to give him an advantage in either offense or defense, reflected in matched bonuses and penalties. A Jedi might opt for a light, fast blade that gives him a +2D bonus on defense, but a -2D penalty on attacks, while a Sith might be just the opposite, with his heavy, powerful blade giving a +2D bonus on attack, but a -2D penalty on defense.

This concept works well with the lightsaber combat RAW, and with the Dueling Blades upgrade that I posted recently.

Alternately, a Jedi with a more advanced saber could pre-set his blade to the desired setting, depending on the type of battle he was facing.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that based on the quote, that instead of +attack/+defense, a light, fast blade would give +lightsaber skill and a heavy, pulling blade would do additional damage, since the pull would cut targets more viciously.

Also, I think +2D is a little too much, it seems to me that bonuses would be a little more subtle. +1D Lightsaber/-1D Damage, or +1D Damage/-1D Lightsaber.

Just my thoughts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Esoomian
High Admiral
High Admiral


Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to go with Raven on this one, a 2D bonus/penalty seems like too much.

I also agree that a 'fast' blade would likely give the bonus to the Lightsaber skill and the penalty to damage rather than a bonus to defence and a penalty to attack while a heavy blade would give the bonus to damage and the penalty to the Lightsaber skill as a whole.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.

Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Add in another vote for +1d/-1d.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I would think that based on the quote, that instead of +attack/+defense, a light, fast blade would give +lightsaber skill and a heavy, pulling blade would do additional damage, since the pull would cut targets more viciously.

Also, I think +2D is a little too much, it seems to me that bonuses would be a little more subtle. +1D Lightsaber/-1D Damage, or +1D Damage/-1D Lightsaber.

Just my thoughts.


That was kind of the way I was leaning at first, but the +lightsaber could be used on attack or defense. And you're probably right about the +2D; I just picked a number at random. Although the way the blade was described in the quote, as an extreme version of the "heavy" saber, +2D might not be that far off.

An option for this rule would be to increase the lightsaber's base difficulty by one level for every +1D it shifted in either direction, representing the difference of the blade from the more balanced "normal" lightsaber. This bonus could be removed if the Jedi in question specialized in his specific saber type.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another rule I've been considering for lightsabers is the ability of the more powerful Sith sabers to "break the blade" of their opponent, as described in Jedi vs. Sith.

My game rule is this:
If a Sith engages a Jedi in combat, his blade has the potential to break his opponent's blade on a powerful swing, shorting out the lightsaber and inflicting an automatic hit on his opponent at normal damage-2D. This occurs only if the Sith rolls a Wild Die 6 on his attack and the Jedi rolls a Wild Die 1 on his parry.

A Jedi who has time to prepare can activate his saber in "slow-draw" mode, emitting a much more stable blade that is immune to the Sith's breaking ability. To activate slow-draw mode on his saber, a Jedi must declare it as an action that round, and cannot take any other actions with his lightsaber until the beginning of the next round.

Thoughts?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
I do think that a Jedi would imbue the lightsaber with something of himself, if by nothing more than constant and familiar use of an item that was so intensely personal to them.

That's the only part of everything you said that I can agree with without reservations. That is exactly what happens and how it happens. Not some magic at saber construction, making it a sword +3, but a slow building of a Force imprint on a much used, very personal item.

And I do agree that Jedi-made sabers would be best - your car metaphor is apt. I however make that much more a function of better knowledge and refinement in saber-making gained by the order over the centuries, than just Force guidence of the maker.

As to the rest of your proposals. I don't like them, sorry. I don't want to sound rude or dismissive, forgive me if I'm coming over that way. But it just dosn't fit into my idea of how things should be. Not that they're bad ideas. I could see them working - just not in my game.
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon The Lion wrote:
That's the only part of everything you said that I can agree with without reservations. That is exactly what happens and how it happens. Not some magic at saber construction, making it a sword +3, but a slow building of a Force imprint on a much used, very personal item.


I try not to make proposals without finding some sort of basis for them in the canon. In this case, there are very few in-universe instances of lightsaber construction; Luke Skywalker in the opening scenes of the Return of the Jedi Radio Drama and Corran Horn in I, Jedi, and in both cases it was a cross between an assembly project and a meditative exercise, with their actions being guided as much by the Force as by their technical knowledge.

The only other instance of saber-type technology in the hands of non-Force users is the Saber Rakes of the Tapani Sector, and their Lightfoils. The RAW for lightfoils is that they short out on a Wild Die of 1, and require 2 hours and a Moderate Lightsaber Repair roll before they can function again. The reason given in the description is as follows:

"Lightfoils are weaker than authentic lightsabers, largely because those who build them do not use the same focusing crystal designs found in real lightsabers. They aren't crafted with the attention and devotion to excellence the Jedi gave to real lightsabers, either. They have a tendency to fail at the worst times..."

Quote:
And I do agree that Jedi-made sabers would be best - your car metaphor is apt. I however make that much more a function of better knowledge and refinement in saber-making gained by the order over the centuries, than just Force guidence of the maker.


Perhaps an even more apt metaphor might be to compare the Japanese Katana down at the local collector's shop priced at $129.99 to a genuine "Hattori Hanzo"-grade katana, which is not only beyond price, but off the market. I've done some research here, and in many ways, the Japanese swordsmiths treated the forging of a true katana blade as a semi-mystical experience, and their devotion to perfection is almost without peer.

With the Jedi being quite literally super-human, I have no doubt that that combination of super-human perception and skill, combined with the unparalleled devotion and focus necessary to perform such an intricate task, would produce a weapon not only far superior technically to a "collector's shop" lightsaber, but possibly even more than the sum of its parts. I'm not saying that a lightsaber should be empowered with mystical Force abilities all of its own, but I do think that there is more to the experience than simply putting all the pieces together so that they fit just right, and the canon bears me out on this (See I, Jedi, pages 236-238).

IMO, lightsabers are so intricate and require such precision engineering that only a fully equipped machine shop withe highly advanced precision assembly equipment (read Droid assistance) could hope to approach what the Jedi can manage with a few simple tools and the guidance of the Force. Any lightsaber produced in such a manner would require months of precision fitting and measuring and testing, and even a single failure could cause the lightsaber to suffer a catastrophic failure the first time it is turned on.

Saber rakes get away with it because their Lightfoils aren't engineered to the same level, and the quality level shows. For a Jedi, however, the lightsaber was their weapon, their badge of office, and one of their primary expressions of their connection to the Force (via their extensive use of the Force in lightsaber combat, both the velocity drills and actual combat). The intensity of it brings me back to the comparison of the katanas. Much like the Samurai, the weapon is an external expression of who the Jedi is. There were always legends about the mystical aspects of Samurai and their katana, most likely exaggerations and legends. In the case of the Jedi, however, there may be more than a grain of truth to the legends.


Quote:
As to the rest of your proposals. I don't like them, sorry. I don't want to sound rude or dismissive, forgive me if I'm coming over that way. But it just dosn't fit into my idea of how things should be. Not that they're bad ideas. I could see them working - just not in my game.


<shrug> Not a problem. We all play our own games how we want to play them.

I am curious, however. I'm not just making these ideas up; I'm basing them off concepts that have been stated or at least alluded to in the canon, so I'm wondering how something that is officially part of the SWU doesn't fit with your idea of how things should be.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here:
crmcneill wrote:
I try not to make proposals without finding some sort of basis for them in the canon.

And here:
crmcneill wrote:
I am curious, however. I'm not just making these ideas up; I'm basing them off concepts that have been stated or at least alluded to in the canon, so I'm wondering how something that is officially part of the SWU doesn't fit with your idea of how things should be.

This is our disconect. You seem to be (and I don't mean anything bad by this, so again sorry if I offend) exactly the sort of person I made that warning in the first post for.

You see, it would be hard for me to care less about "something that is officially part of the SWU" than I already do. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one thing that is canon: the movies (yes, even the prequels). And even the movies (especially the prequels in this case) I mostly don't touch out of simple expedience - they are the most likely common ground for everyone who has heard of Star Wars. Everything else, the whole Expanded Universe? It should feel lucky if I even deign to look it's way, much less use anything from it in my games. I pick and choose EU elements as the fancy strikes me, and I am very picky. Instead I create my own ideas, or bring in elements from other sources, other universes, that I like, as I like.

You see, that's what I did in the old days in my little backwater town, before easy internet access or a well-equipped library could introduce me to the EU. We only had the three movies and a copy of the rulebook to go on, and upon that foundation constructed our own SWU. By the time I fully discovered the official EU I already had a very well developed vision of my own Star Wars "EU" firmly entranched in my mind - a vision that causes hard-cased canon purists aneurysms. And I just didn't, and still don't, and will never, feel the need to change my vision to conform to the bloated mass of the "true" EU, 90% plus of which I think to suck almightily.

Is that selfish of me? Quite possibly. But I don't force anybody to conform to my vision. I'm absolutely upfront about my take on Star Wars with any potential player candidate for my game. If they don't like it, if they don't think they can leave the EU and the canon outside the door before the game, than we're not going to be able to have fun together. But we part ways amicably. I will not think less of anybody for liking the EU (well, maybe some parts of it Razz ). But I will not run a true-to-EU-canon game. No fun in it for me.
But I could play in a true-to-EU-canon game no problem. I'm just weird that way.

And I had no problem finding players. I had to drop and exchange a part of the original player lineup, but that was for personality and RP, not canonicity, reasons. But now my campaign is into it's second year and rolling along smoothly. One of the players still gets occasionally somewhat frustrated with my blatant disregard for canon, but nowadays its more of a playful, fond frustration. The other's prior exposure to SW is limited to the movies, so no cause for problems there.

And if somebody asks: "Why then, if you're changing so much about it, do you insist on still calling it Star Wars? Why play Star Wars at all then? Why not find some other system and universe, better suited to your needs?"?
I have a simple answer: "Because." Because that's the way I want to have fun. And that's reason enough for me.
In my experience such questions are often one breath away from one-true-wayism and accusations of bad-wrong-fun. And I'm having none of that, thank you.

Heh, got a little heated and confrontational there, again. Sorry, nothing personal agains you, crmcneill, or anybody else here. Its just something I feel strongly about.

And here I go again, derailing my own thread Razz
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0