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The Wild die when not using CPs to boost rolls..
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: The Wild die when not using CPs to boost rolls.. Reply with quote

As some might remember we dont use CPs to boost dicerolls.

This means that the Wild die can be especially merciless. Some tactics become useless resulting in unneccessary combat situations. For example, the whole party wants to sneak by a sentry. Its not right behind the back, but with some difficulties sneaking about some boxes 20m away. Someone will roll a 1 on the wild die and give away the whole group. This is, by the RAW, fixed by spending a few CPs if availible. How do you manage this with no CPs.

I propose that every situation will be classified into three levels of danger.

Critical:
This would be sneaking right past the sentry behind his back. More or less impossible for a group. The slightest mistake will alert the guard.
Here the Wild die will work as normal, even though you cant save yourself with CPs.

Dangerous:
This would be the above example of sneaking 20m away among some boxes. You still have to know what you are doing, but kicking a small pebble or can will not automatically give you away.
In these situations the Wild die will result in a complication at the most. The guard might hear something forcing the character to freeze in the shadows, only to roll again to move on.

Normal:
This would be most situations where you have to take a test, but theres no immediate danger. In the above situation it might be moving between two buildings at a good distance while the guard looks the other way.
In these situations there is no Wild die.
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Last edited by ZzaphodD on Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: The Wild die when not using CPs to boost rolls.. Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
As some might remember we dont use CPs to boost dicerolls.

This means that the Wild die can be especially merciless. Some tactics become useless resulting in unneccessary combat situations. For example, the whole party wants to sneak by a sentry. Its not right behind the back, but with some difficulties sneaking about some boxes 20m away. Someone will roll a 1 on the wild die and give away the whole group. This is, by the RAW, fixed by spending a few CPs if availible. How do you manage this with no CPs.

I propose that every situation will be classified into three levels of danger.

Critical
This would be sneaking right past the sentry behind his back. More or less impossible for a group.

Dangerous
This would be the above example of sneaking 20m away among some boxes.

Normal..

Sorry, Ill be back an finish this.

Have to go.


I've played in some campaigns where you had to confirm a Wild Dice roll, i.e. if you rolled a Wild, you had to re-roll it, and if you came up with the same result, it stuck, either good or bad.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO it is "fixed" with the CP. Without CP I think D6 isn't going to work too well.

The Wild Die comes up much too often. One in 6 chance per roll. If you have a half dozen PCs in your group, then there is only a 33% chance of somebody not rolling a 1. With mutiple opponents it gets even worse, since there is awalys the chance of a foe rolling a 6 or series of sixes and getting an abnormally high PER roll. Even Obi-wan is going to have trouble sneaking up on the guy who rolled a 56 PER roll.

What you might want to do is to replace the Wild Die mechanic with something a bit less common. An all 1s roll might work better for fumbles.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
IMO it is "fixed" with the CP. Without CP I think D6 isn't going to work too well..


You mean the Wild Die isnt going to work well..?

Quote:

The Wild Die comes up much too often. One in 6 chance per roll. If you have a half dozen PCs in your group, then there is only a 33% chance of somebody not rolling a 1. With mutiple opponents it gets even worse, since there is awalys the chance of a foe rolling a 6 or series of sixes and getting an abnormally high PER roll. Even Obi-wan is going to have trouble sneaking up on the guy who rolled a 56 PER roll. .


Which is exactly why I came up with the above, as I didnt want to remove the wild die completely.
Quote:

What you might want to do is to replace the Wild Die mechanic with something a bit less common. An all 1s roll might work better for fumbles.


On the other hand, then youll NEVER see a 'fumble' if people are not both totally untrained AND have low abilities..
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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
IMO it is "fixed" with the CP. Without CP I think D6 isn't going to work too well.


You mean like last week when I forgot to tell my new players about CP? Laughing

We had a good time nonetheless.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember Z.. The dm gets to determin if a 1 on the wild dice is a failure or a complication.. Just cause you rolled a 1 when sneaking say, doesn't mean you alerted the enemy. You still (after taking the 1 and the highest die out by the RAW) might make the diff...

Quote:
An all 1s roll might work better for fumbles.


With me, that is a Critical fumble..
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ZzaphodD"]
Quote:
On the other hand, then youll NEVER see a 'fumble' if people are not both totally untrained AND have low abilities..


Not if there are MAPs involved.


To be honest, fumble type results are not a great idea in a cinematic style RPG without something to act as a counterbalance. It a case of RPG tradition going against drama.

An audience would have felt @cheated@ if Luke had rolled bad and failed to blow up the Death Star, and the Empire wiped out all the Rebels.

If you take out CPs then I suggest that you take out the Wild Die as well, *like 1st edition( or at least the negative aspects of it. Really poor results are still possible through bad rolls, and the explosing sixes prevent the old problem of a character simply not being able to do something *such as 1st edition Stromtroopers hitting anything at long range).


Another possiblity would be to use two wild dice, and reqyuire both to be 1s or 6s for the effect. This would reduce the chance tow to 1/36 (about 3%).


Last edited by atgxtg on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="garhkal"]Remember Z.. The dm gets to determin if a 1 on the wild dice is a failure or a complication.. Just cause you rolled a 1 when sneaking say, doesn't mean you alerted the enemy. You still (after taking the 1 and the highest die out by the RAW) might make the diff...

Complications are usually worse than losing the dice. When the 1-in-6 chance of comming up, it can turn a Star Wars game into something like Abbott & Costello go to Mars.


Quote:
With me, that is a Critical fumble..


With me any fumble can be a critical one if it is the wrong thing at the wrong time.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
To be honest, fumble type results are not a great idea in a cinematic style RPG without something to act as a counterbalance. It a case of RPG tradition going against drama.

An audience would have felt @cheated@ if Luke had rolled bad and failed to blow up the Death Star, and the Empire wiped out all the Rebels.


The audience didnt feel cheated when Han screwed up trying to con the imperials while in the detention center.. The movie plot just took a new direction.

Regarding Luke getting to shoot up the Death Star, that was severe incompetence by the DS commander to begin with...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoeEdW-EDQ
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Complications are usually worse than losing the dice. When the 1-in-6 chance of comming up, it can turn a Star Wars game into something like Abbott & Costello go to Mars.


True dat.

BUT what i was getting at, is that i have had games where even WITH someone getting a 1 on the wild dice, either what they were doing was not critical enough (meaning real high diff) or the rest of their dice rolled still gave them high enough of a total to succeed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't always assume that a one on the wild is a botch, I have players just subtract the 1 and the highest die and add their total from there. Usually I will call it a botch if the difficulty is missed by like 10-15 points and even then I try to make is very specific to what action is occurring. Like when using stealth for example, a botch doesn't always have to signify that the player has alerted a guard. Maybe they dropped an important piece of equipment or think that they have been spotted when they really haven't been. I try to mix it up all the time so it doesn't become stale.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually just let the player roll a new die, subtracting it from the total. If its a 6 keep rolling.

However, just doing it this 'light' version often tend to screw moderately easy tasks up, especially if all party members must succeed at something.

The reverse also applies. For exampel players with high KNO skills seldom gets to shine, as its not unusual that someone else (with low KNO skills) rolls a 6 and gets to add to their skillroll. This can of course occur in combat, but as combat often requires lots of rolls it evens out. Also, the mechanics for combat means that a single good roll wont let you dominate combat oriented characters.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:

The audience didnt feel cheated when Han screwed up trying to con the imperials while in the detention center.. The movie plot just took a new direction.


They would have if Leia didn't just appen to blast open a chute to the trash compactor, or if 3PO and R2 didn't get them out before they got mushed.

In a typical RPG game, the PCs would have been trapped in the corridor on the detention level. Cinematic style RPGs now have things PCs can do to bend the game realtity a little, such as there just happens to be a trash chute right by the detention cells.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

True dat.

BUT what i was getting at, is that i have had games where even WITH someone getting a 1 on the wild dice, either what they were doing was not critical enough (meaning real high diff) or the rest of their dice rolled still gave them high enough of a total to succeed.


I7ve had that happen too. A couple sessions back, one PC with blaster rifle at 7-8D did just that. He was shooting at someone, rolled a one, and still beat the difficulty by 15 or so.

Last week I had a situation where a PC was doing some tricky piloting and "lost" a blaster cannon when his Sfoil collided with another ship.


But I think the 1 in 6 chance is too brutal without something to mitigate it (like CPs).
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:

The audience didnt feel cheated when Han screwed up trying to con the imperials while in the detention center.. The movie plot just took a new direction.


They would have if Leia didn't just appen to blast open a chute to the trash compactor, or if 3PO and R2 didn't get them out before they got mushed.


Which is what I meant with the plot taking new direction..

Quote:

In a typical RPG game, the PCs would have been trapped in the corridor on the detention level. Cinematic style RPGs now have things PCs can do to bend the game realtity a little, such as there just happens to be a trash chute right by the detention cells.


I guess my players are really good at finding new solutions. If not the gargage chute, they would have come up with something...probably even crazier...

This is not the point however. My players can overcome when someone alerts the guards with a very low die roll because of a 1 on the wild die. However, it does lead to 'unneccessary' combats which slow down the game. It can also overturn the best and smartest laid plans, and if all party members must pass a certain test it usually does (as we are 5 characters).

My idea was to get some structure to how the wild die works in different situations. Instead of just arbitrary choosing when the wild die is importan or not, I wanted to have a set guideline. The first step was to classify each situation into one of the three 'danger levels' above. Depending on what 'danger level' the situation was the wild die works to a different degree. More danger = full wild die. Less danger = only the less drastic results apply.
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