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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:13 am Post subject: Area Effect Weapons In Space |
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| I'm looking for some rules ideas for the Ion Pulse Cannon on the Malevolence (Clone Wars), but I'm at a loss. Anyone got some thoughts? |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Try handling it as a cone, moving at SPACE 15 each turn. The cone is a 45 degree arc, so it is always as wide as the distance it has travelled. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Try handling it as a cone, moving at SPACE 15 each turn. The cone is a 45 degree arc, so it is always as wide as the distance it has travelled. |
It is a picky point, but if the intent is for the diameter of the cone to be equal to the length, I believe the cone should be approximately 53-degrees or twice the arctan(0.5).
A 45 degree arc cone would give a width of approximately 12.5 for a length of 15 units. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16179
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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I was considering just giving it an obscenely high FC rating, indicating how difficult it is to dodge a shot at all.
As for affecting multiple targets, I had a nascent idea for formation rules, with a group of ships being in either standard, close or dispersed formation, which would give you a rule of thumb for how close the ships are to each other. Ideally, if a formation of ships were targeted by an area effect weapon, the gunner would select a single target vessel, but with an eye toward affecting as many targets as possible. Depending on what formation the ships are in, the other vessels would have bonuses to evade the blast, while the target vessel may take the brunt of the effect.
Of course, formation rules might come in handy in other situations as well, such as cooperative shield generation, coordinating fire, etc. |
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cheshire
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Area Effect Weapons In Space |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I'm looking for some rules ideas for the Ion Pulse Cannon on the Malevolence (Clone Wars), but I'm at a loss. Anyone got some thoughts? |
I seem to remember us having a HUGE discussion about this exact ship when we were doing the conversion guide. I'm not sure I remember what we decided to do or how, but I'm sure the discussion is still there in the Clone Wars Conversion Guide thread. Also, the end results are bound to be in the guide itself. Nonetheless, I know that a number of different possibilities were proposed.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Heh... it looks like that was the very first item we discussed on that conversion guide:
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2441
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the link Cheshire. Very helpful. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Try handling it as a cone, moving at SPACE 15 each turn. The cone is a 45 degree arc, so it is always as wide as the distance it has travelled. |
It is a picky point, but if the intent is for the diameter of the cone to be equal to the length, I believe the cone should be approximately 53-degrees or twice the arctan(0.5).
A 45 degree arc cone would give a width of approximately 12.5 for a length of 15 units. |
You are robably right. I picked 45 degress for use on a 2D (flat) game board. I think I got it wrong, I should have used a 60 degree ange to get an equalateral triangle. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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In this line, wouldn't weapons such as Proton torpeedos have a "blast radius' even in space?
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Im amazed at the amount of energy that must be poured into space o affect targets within such an area..(compared to the result of an concentrated blast).
I have always assumed that a proton torpedo did not always 'hit' its target, but was sometimes detonated by a proximity trigger. Thats the 'area effect' of such weapons in my mind.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Im amazed at the amount of energy that must be poured into space o affect targets within such an area..(compared to the result of an concentrated blast).
I have always assumed that a proton torpedo did not always 'hit' its target, but was sometimes detonated by a proximity trigger. Thats the 'area effect' of such weapons in my mind. |
I've put some thought into this. I think proton torpedoes and other projectiles still exist in a world with energy weapons because they provide specific advantages that energy weapons don't. Energy weapons are probably very energy efficient, yielding a high ratio of energy discharge to reactive material expended. Also, they are a linear discharge, so they shoot where you point them, without having to calculate for the effects of gravity or atmospheric conditions to the same degree that one would with a mass driver.
However, projectile weapons would still be useful in certain situation. For starters, they can track their target and make midcourse corrections and terminal guidance on their way to target (I don't care what WEG says; frame-by-frame analysis of ANH shows two proton torpedoes making a 90 degree turn down that exhaust shaft).
In addition, I expect that the warheads can be fused on the fly for maximum effect against a specific target. Specifically, a proton torpedo warhead could be set for a proximity detonation with an omni-directional blast for use against multiple smaller scale targets, contact detonation with a mono-directional discharge for punching through shields, or delayed impact with a cone-shaped discharge for an armor piercing effect against a capital ship. This sort of selective fusing might even occur automatically, with all the fusing information set by computer based on the target selected.
Also, projectile weapons give you the option of selecting a specific effect based on the warhead payload. High explosive, fragmentation, incendiary, gas, cluster munitions, guided anti-armor munitions, multi-purpose landmines, and the lit goes on and on. Energy weapons have set effects and limitations. With projectile weapons, you can specifically tailor the warhead to the target.
One final advantage for projectile weapons is their ability to engage targets out of line-of-sight. Artillery weapons firing shells in a ballistic arc have inflicted more damage in the history of warfare than any other weapon system, but the WEG rules almost ignore projectile artillery as an effective weapon.
Short version, energy weapons are the perfect weapon for normal targets that you can see. Projectile weapons are used for the special targets; either the ones that absolutely positively have to be blown up just right, or for specific situations where energy weapons just won't work. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:41 am Post subject: |
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I know in the Xwing novels there is at least 2 incidents i can remember where the prox of the PT to the target was enough to set it off and destroy the target...
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I know in the Xwing novels there is at least 2 incidents i can remember where the prox of the PT to the target was enough to set it off and destroy the target... |
As the technology exist in reality, I assume its in SW too. I greatly increases the chance of 'hitting' compared to if you actually need to physically hit the target.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | Im amazed at the amount of energy that must be poured into space o affect targets within such an area..(compared to the result of an concentrated blast).
I have always assumed that a proton torpedo did not always 'hit' its target, but was sometimes detonated by a proximity trigger. Thats the 'area effect' of such weapons in my mind. |
I've put some thought into this. I think proton torpedoes and other projectiles still exist in a world with energy weapons because they provide specific advantages that energy weapons don't. Energy weapons are probably very energy efficient, yielding a high ratio of energy discharge to reactive material expended. Also, they are a linear discharge, so they shoot where you point them, without having to calculate for the effects of gravity or atmospheric conditions to the same degree that one would with a mass driver.
However, projectile weapons would still be useful in certain situation. For starters, they can track their target and make midcourse corrections and terminal guidance on their way to target (I don't care what WEG says; frame-by-frame analysis of ANH shows two proton torpedoes making a 90 degree turn down that exhaust shaft).
In addition, I expect that the warheads can be fused on the fly for maximum effect against a specific target. Specifically, a proton torpedo warhead could be set for a proximity detonation with an omni-directional blast for use against multiple smaller scale targets, contact detonation with a mono-directional discharge for punching through shields, or delayed impact with a cone-shaped discharge for an armor piercing effect against a capital ship. This sort of selective fusing might even occur automatically, with all the fusing information set by computer based on the target selected.
Also, projectile weapons give you the option of selecting a specific effect based on the warhead payload. High explosive, fragmentation, incendiary, gas, cluster munitions, guided anti-armor munitions, multi-purpose landmines, and the lit goes on and on. Energy weapons have set effects and limitations. With projectile weapons, you can specifically tailor the warhead to the target.
One final advantage for projectile weapons is their ability to engage targets out of line-of-sight. Artillery weapons firing shells in a ballistic arc have inflicted more damage in the history of warfare than any other weapon system, but the WEG rules almost ignore projectile artillery as an effective weapon.
Short version, energy weapons are the perfect weapon for normal targets that you can see. Projectile weapons are used for the special targets; either the ones that absolutely positively have to be blown up just right, or for specific situations where energy weapons just won't work. |
Here is something I came up with earlier in a yiffy...
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2853&highlight=missiles
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I picked 45 degress for use on a 2D (flat) game board. I think I got it wrong, I should have used a 60 degree ange to get an equalateral triangle. |
Equilateral triangle will have equal sides, but not an equal bisector. If each side of the cone is 10 units, the length of the cone is 10 x sqrt(3)/2 = 5 x sqrt(3) ~ 8.7 units and the end of the cone is again 10 units.
And some folks thought trigonometry was a waste of time.  |
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